The Pre-existence, No Beginning...

[changed]

Hey, changed.

The thread I was involved in previously on this topic was titled "Celestial Seasonings" if you wish to search for it and read through it. Most of it is pretty convoluted and there is not much of a cohesive flow to the overall thread. I think I entered it around page 4. Most of my thoughts can be found there scattered among the debris.

link for my ref

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...nings&st=60

I've read through this thread (it was a lot of reading) and there are some interesting thoughts brought forward. I'm not sure what you were interested in my commenting on, specifically.

There are a number of thought experiments that I have used to consider the issue of evil, the pre-existence, agency, justice, and mercy. The results are usually one of two things -

First, either God can not be just because there is a difference in the spirit/intelligence/ur-intelligence that we cannot account for that pre-dispossess some to eventually fail to achieve celestial glory while others are more naturally predisposed to become exalted.

We don't all start out on an equal playing field, but God, through the atonement, provides an equal playing field... IMO

I have wondered if we are slaves to our own nature - not God's fault for who we are, but how much can we actually change who we are? I think the future is set in stone, if not, God would not know everything. Knowing something and causing it are two different things though, God knows it, but we cause it, so it is still our agency, our will... I think there is something with the atonement though that can actually change us... Why people would not choose it? It is painful to grow, hard to change, free agency is not free... there have been times where I have tried to give my will to God, because I honestly don't want it anymore, don't want to be the cause of any pain to anyone... no mountain tops without the valleys and all that. Heaven is defined by hell, that's just the nature of things.

Second, to get around this, a being has to either have had agency to choose it's own beginning (and how can this be possible and why would they choose to be disadvantaged?) at some point in their first moment of self-awareness or been given the exact same disposition and had the exact same experiences in the pre-existence to justify any future discrepancies in advantage that occur in this life. Yet if this is the case, why would any being choose wrong over good in the pre-existence? What could they possibly base such a choice on?

- yes, perhaps we have no choice in either existing or not. Not God's doing, or our own doing, we just exist. I think we have a choice in â??livingâ? or not thoughâ?¦ "eternal" vs eternally â??aliveâ?â?¦ the second death perhaps really is a deathâ?¦ Also the problem around making an uninformed decision, canâ??t really make a choice if you donâ??t understand the consequences of the choice, and you usually canâ??t fully understand the consequences until after the factâ?¦

8 all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 40:

somehow, beyond the veil, I donâ??t think there will be time, no â??beforeâ? no â??afterâ?â?¦ without time, without requirement for cause to come before effects, perhaps informed decisions can be madeâ?¦ Necessity of the fall, so everyone can make informed decisions.

I think in this case, I should also explain that I am conflicted about being too forward with my thoughts.

please don't be, at least on my account. I appreciate those who are forward and honest with what they think.

My conflict comes from the unintended consequences of these sorts of discussions on anonymous message boards. Personally, I do not think the church is bad, and being agnostic I do not think any religion has a direct path back to God that I would wish someone else to pursue. I was raised in the church and in many ways am better for it. If I knew you in real life, we would probably have interesting discussions and I would use a lot of discretion in saying anything that would hurt your obvious enthusiasm and benefits you have found in the faith.

Call it what you will, my instinct is that I should just let this one lay as it is.

"If your church is your God, you will find no God in your church"...CS Lewis? I rely on the Holy Spirit more than I do the church. Is that wrong? My enthusiasm is in finding God... The Holy Spirit is real, I now know God exists... Now I am just trying to figure out who He is.

PS

I'm not here to convert anyone. Missionary work confuses me, only the Holy Spirit converts people, God converts people, Jesus converts people... I would not trust any conversion that comes from another person... belief in "Peter Paul and Mary" vs. belief in God... has to come from God to really be a belief in Him IMO. I do think meeting together and talking with people brings you closer to God... Anyhoo, I think everyone has found truths, and good questions... Sometimes it is a matter of finding the questions to ask, can't get any answers if you never ask the questions... Hardest questions have the deepest answers, Thanks for your thoughts!