The Pre-existence, No Beginning...

[Hoops22]

And this is important as Gen 1 addresses several errors:

atheism

pantheism

polytheism

materialism

dualism

humanism

evolutionism

[Lachoneus]

Bara means to creat out of nothing -

No, it does not. As stated previously, that is a religious interpretation of the word, not a lexicographic definition. According to Brown-Driver-Briggs bara means

1. to create, shape, form

1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)

1. of heaven and earth

2. of individual man

3. of new conditions and circumstances

4. of transformations

2. (Niphal) to be created

1. of heaven and earth

2. of birth

3. of something new

4. of miracles

3. (Piel) to cut

1. to cut down

2. to cut out

2. to be fat

1. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Notice that there is nothing in this definition given in the lexicon about "out of nothing." That is a religious understanding that has been added.

see Rom 4:17, Heb 11:3.

Romans and Hebrews are written in Greek and do not contain the Hebrew word bara, so this is just more religious interpretation.

Additionally, The next verses use the word asah, which means to fashion out of existing materal. Why the change in verb?

As you can see above, the word bara also means "to shape, fashion."

Finally, bara is used ONLY with God in the entire OT.

Not true. E.g., Joshuah 17: 15, 18.

Now, we have given reasons to read it as it is plainly written.

But you are not reading "it as it is plainly written." You are adding a religious interpretation to the "plain" definition found in the lexicon.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Romans and Hebrews are written in Greek and do not contain the Hebrew word bara, so this is just more religious interpretation.

In Hebrews, its the verb katartizō. It appears throughout the rest of the New Testament, it always involves working with or organizing something or somethings that already is/are present. In the case of Hebrews the usage is even more poignant given the fact that the passage speaks of framing the worlds or, in other words, a creation context. The "things that do not appear" are in fact things not seen but yet existing and being used to "frame" the worlds.

By comparing the primary usage to that of the verb at Hebrews 11:3, there is no way that the New Testament can be marshalled into support for the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo without doing injustice to the various passages of the New Testament that clearly teach a contrary view to that doctrine.

* Lunch is over, I'll be back after work.

[Hoops22]

No, it does not. As stated previously, that is a religious interpretation of the word, not a lexicographic definition.

By your definition, every word is a religous interpretation. Nonetheless, we can know it's meaning. Hebrews 11 and Romans 4 supports creation from nothing. I suppose if we throw out other verses that support creation from nothing, then it could be. But if Heb 11 and Rom 4 mean anything at all, they mean creation from nothing.

And, again, why shouldn't it mean creation from nothing?

Not true. E.g., Joshuah 17: 15, 18.

Are you saying that these verses are using bara with God NOT the subject? I'm unsure of your point.

But you are not reading "it as it is plainly written." You are adding a religious interpretation to the "plain" definition found in the lexicon.

I disagree. Given:

1. to create, shape, form

1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)

1. of heaven and earth

2. of individual man

3. of new conditions and circumstances

4. of transformations

How is this not of nothing.

[Lachoneus]

By your definition, every word is a religous interpretation.

This response makes no sense. I gave the definition of the word bara that appears in my lexicon. That definition says nothing at all about creation being "out of nothing." It is the "out of nothing" concept that is the religious definition you have added to the definition given in the lexicon. No where have I ever hinted that every word is a religious interpretation.

But if Heb 11 and Rom 4 mean anything at all, they mean creation from nothing.

Wrong again. Please read Ray's post just above yours.

And, again, why shouldn't it mean creation from nothing?

You are looking at it backwards. One does not fabricate a definition and then ask "Why shouldn't this word have that definition?" The proper procedure is to inquire as to the word's actual meaning and usage. I prefer BDB. What do you use?

Are you saying that these verses are using bara with God NOT the subject? I'm unsure of your point.

If you had any real idea what bara means, you would not have asked that question. I suggest you consult the Hebrew text yourself.

I disagree. Given:

1. to create, shape, form

1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)

1. of heaven and earth

2. of individual man

3. of new conditions and circumstances

4. of transformations

How is this not of nothing.

How is this "out of nothing"? One shapes, forms and fashions that which exists, not that which does not exist.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

If you had any real idea what bara means, you would not have asked that question. I suggest you consult the Hebrew text yourself.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

How is this "out of nothing"? One shapes, forms and fashions that which exists, not that which does not exist.

A potter can create a bowl by shaping it through his power, and while the bowl had been created from non-being, the bowl was not created from nothing.

Nehemiah 9:6 is a point made, and I've have had a chance to study it today. Gen 1:10 accounts God "called the dry [land] Earth"; "and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas": "and God saw that [it was] good".

Likewise, Nehemiah 9:6 states that Yahweh "made" the "seas", etc. which would be accounted for in Genesis 1:10, but the waters were not created when we are first introduced to the creative process in Genesis 1:1. Which again means Genesis 1 is not an account of all creative activity [aka, the waters], by which there were waters that God was hovering over that existed before God even spoke for the seas to be created in Genesis 1:10.

Nehemiah 9:6 also states Yahweh "made" the "heaven-heavens" (which could be stellar space) and their host (which could be sun, moon, and stars).

* Be back tomarrow

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

A potter can create a bowl by shaping it through his power, and while the bowl had been created from non-being, the bowl was not created from nothing.

God created all the elements used by the potter to form his bowl. A potter needs elements to form, God created those elements. In the beginning God started with nothing and created "all things".

Holy Scripture must be wrong if something existed before God created "all things" because the Bible reveals that God created all things (1Cor 8:6). "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1).

Nehemiah 9:6 is a point made, and I've have had a chance to study it today. Gen 1:10 accounts God "called the dry [land] Earth"; "and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas": "and God saw that [it was] good".

In Genesis 1:1 what did God create when it says he created "the earth"?

My view is that:

- God created the elements of "the earth" (Gen 1:1)

- which results in a earth "without form and void" (Gen 1:2)

- later the earth has "dry land" and "seas" (Gen 1:10)

Likewise, Nehemiah 9:6 states that Yahweh "made" the "seas", etc. which would be accounted for in Genesis 1:10, but the waters were not created when we are first introduced to the creative process in Genesis 1:1. Which again means Genesis 1 is not an account of all creative activity [aka, the waters], by which there were waters that God was hovering over that existed before God even spoke for the seas to be created in Genesis 1:10.

Creation had a beginning (Rev 3:14). It is a creative process which begins when God created "the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1), when God created all things (1Cor 8:6). If God made "all things" then God started with nothing .

Nehemiah 9:6 also states Yahweh "made" the "heaven-heavens" (which could be stellar space) and their host (which could be sun, moon, and stars).

Spirits did not pre-exist or were not born of heavenly parents like Mormonism teaches. All his angels, all his hosts were created when Yahweh commanded (Psalm 148:1-5). The "heaven of heavens" was made with all their hosts when Yahweh commanded (Psalm 33:6-9; Nehemiah 9:6). All things that are in heaven were created through the Word (Col 1:16-17).

• Pss.148 ([1] Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. [2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. [3] Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. [4] Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. [5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.)
  
• -
  
• Pss.33 ([6] By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. [9] For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast..)
  
• -
  
• Col.1 ([16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.)
  
• -
  
• Neh.9 (. [6] Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. )
  

[changed]

It is really very simple â?? either

a.) God did not create evil in any way shape or form

b.) God is a two-faced hypocritical being who created evil â?? in which case I have no desire to worship Him.

Good comes from God, evil comes from the devil. End of story.

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:12 - 14)

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

Here is one from the Bible. God is not divided against Himself. He did not create evil.

(New Testament | Mark 3:25)

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

I canâ??t believe people are sitting here trying to argue that God created evil. Satan is the author of that kind of rubbish.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

The pre-ex fits in nicely with science too.

http://panspermia.org/

http://panspermia.org/thebegin.htm

[Richard]

This would be the orthodox Christian belief. What all Trinity believing Christian faiths have come to accept. I could give you the Scriptures that support this. If you like.

In Christ

Rich

THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

[johnny]

changed

It is really very simple â?? either

a.) God did not create evil in any way shape or form

b.) God is a two-faced hypocritical being who created evil â?? in which case I have no desire to worship Him.

I would agree it is very simple, scripture says â??I â?¦ create evilâ?, see below,

• Isa.45 ([7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [18] For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.)
  

[sean0scott]

changedI would agree it is very simple, scripture says â??I â?¦ create evilâ?, see below,

• Isa.45 ([7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [18] For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.)
  

So God is not perfectly good? Or is a God who delights in evil still perfectly good?

Good comes from God, evil comes from the devil. End of story.

Did the devil create evil?

[changed]

It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy,

Again, free will cannot be created.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of dtruth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that asphere in which God has placed it, to bact for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the aagency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

If we are 100% created, then everything can be 100% traced back to the designs of the creator, in which there is no free will. To be able to choose and make our own independent choices, part of us has to be independent. If part of us does not exist independently, there is no independent will.

changed

I would agree it is very simple, scripture says â??I â?¦ create evilâ?, see below,

• Isa.45 ([7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [18] For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.)
  

Proof that the dark ages did horrible things to the Bible. Why I am so happy to have the JST, and the BoM.

God never created evil.

evil is not a "creation" it is a "destruction"... it is impossible to "create evil". the very idea is a nonsensical contradiction - proof that it was altered.

Did the devil create evil?

The devil does not create anything... He destroys a lot of stuff though

[johnny]

changed

Proof that the dark ages did horrible things to the Bible. Why I am so happy to have the JST, and the BoM.

Proof that Mormonism is not consistent with what the Bible reveals.

God never created evil.

Interesting â?¦. You say â??God never created evilâ? and the Bible reveals different.

evil is not a "creation" it is a "destruction"... it is impossible to "create evil". the very idea is a nonsensical contradiction - proof that it was altered

Isa 45:7 says â??I ... create evilâ? â?¦ what is your interpretation of Isa 45:7?

[Jason]

Interesting â?¦. You say â??God never created evilâ? and the Bible reveals different.

Isa 45:7 says â??I ... create evilâ? â?¦ what is your interpretation of Isa 45:7?

"Evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is not necessarily "moral evil". In fact it might be translated "adversity, affliction, calamity, distress", or "misery".

NIV and HCSB translate it "disaster".

NKJV, NAS, ESV translate it as "calamity".

NRSV translates it as "woe".

[Bat-Man]

Interesting â?¦. You say â??God never created evilâ? and the Bible reveals different.

God does create evil in the sense that God organizes what is evil to bring about his own good purposes, but God does not make something evil from the get go.

What God makes is good, when He makes it, and if what He made to be good later becomes evil, through the exercise of its own agency, God still works with the evil, organizing it, making it suit His own good purposes, to bring about something good from the evil.

The evil that is in the universe was created by those who chose to be evil, having first started out as something good, at which point God simply uses the evil to bring about His own good purposes... a fact which continually bothers Satan and other people who are evil to no end.

Isa 45:7 says â??I ... create evilâ? â?¦ what is your interpretation of Isa 45:7?

He "organizes" what is evil.

You need to understand what it means to create, as well as to understand who/what makes something good become evil, as well as to understand who/what makes something evil become good.

[changed]

changed

Proof that Mormonism is not consistent with what the Bible reveals. Interesting â?¦. You say â??God never created evilâ? and the Bible reveals different.

The altered Bible contradicts itself.

The BoM contradicts the altered Bible only where the Bible contradicts itself.

So, which part of the Bible do you believe? The part that says God created evil, or do you believe the part that states there is no darkness in God, the part that states God is perfect,

5 God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

(New Testament | 1 John 1:5)

31 As for God, his way is perfect;

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 22:31)

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:4)

Is God â??without iniquityâ? or is God the â??creator of evilâ?. You decide which Bible scripture to believe.

Stuff that is not perfect exists -

if it is perfect, it is His work.

If it is not perfect, He did not create it.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

says â??I ... create evilâ? â?¦ what is your interpretation of Isa 45:7?

My interpretation is that a evil church wanted to gain power by telling people they would "save" them from a "wrathful and vengeful" God - telling them to fear God, the creator of evil, lest God smite you with evil too! that is how they gained power. The church does not save anyone, Jesus saves, God saves.

[sean0scott]

evil is not a "creation" it is a "destruction"... it is impossible to "create evil". the very idea is a nonsensical contradiction - proof that it was altered.

The devil does not create anything... He destroys a lot of stuff though

I understand now; the way you phrased that first post was a bit suspect. I thank you for clarifying.

[johnny]

changed

The altered Bible contradicts itself.

For me the passages you listed are consistent with Isa 45:7.

My interpretation is that a evil church wanted to gain power by telling people they would "save" them from a "wrathful and vengeful" God - telling them to fear God, the creator of evil, lest God smite you with evil too! that is how they gained power. The church does not save anyone, Jesus saves, God saves.

Your interpretation is very different than what Isa 45:7 reveals â?¦

[Bat-Man]

Again, free will cannot be created.

It can in the sense of it being organized.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Our Lord meant that the light of truth, itself, wasn't and couldn't be made from out of nothing.

It is organized, so in that sense it is created.

Even our Lord's words need to be interpreted correctly, by the light of truth.

God never created evil.

He did, and does, in the sense of organizing it.

evil is not a "creation" it is a "destruction"... it is impossible to "create evil". the very idea is a nonsensical contradiction - proof that it was altered.

Evil is "made" or "created" when people with agency choose to take what is true or good to turn it into something which is false or evil.

Example: Satan does that when He takes takes the word of God, which is good and true, to make another statement or convey another idea of his own which is evil.

Satan takes what is good and "makes" it evil.

Even the act of destruction can be seen as a form of creation, in a sense, as well as a good thing.

God is now destroying the evil within those of us who follow him to make something good out of us.

The difference between good and evil is seen as relative to the direction we are facing.

The devil does not create anything... He destroys a lot of stuff though

Would you feel more comfortable saying the devil "makes" something evil, out of something good?

If not, it would still be true for me to say that he does.

[changed]

I just realized that Isa 45 is not even talking about God... "the Lord" is Jesus, not God...

CHAPTER 45

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:Heading)

Cyrus shall free the captives of Israel from Babylonâ??Come unto Jehovah (Christ) and be savedâ??To him every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear.

Even so, I don't think Jesus creates evil either. I don't trust the scripture.

God does create evil in the sense that God organizes what is evil to bring about his own good purposes, but God does not make something evil from the get go.

What God makes is good, when He makes it, and if what He made to be good later becomes evil, through the exercise of its own agency, God still works with the evil, organizing it, making it suit His own good purposes, to bring about something good from the evil.

The evil that is in the universe was created by those who chose to be evil, having first started out as something good, at which point God simply uses the evil to bring about His own good purposes... a fact which continually bothers Satan and other people who are evil to no end.

He "organizes" what is evil.

You need to understand what it means to create, as well as to understand who/what makes something good become evil, as well as to understand who/what makes something evil become good.

I get your point, refined in the fire, molding what is evil, we are in the process of being created etc... that is a good take on it, that what is fallen is being tranformed, that he is transforming what is fallen... not making evil, transforming evil into something better - good point.

so:

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create bevil: I the LORD do all these things.

should be

7 I turn darkness into light: I make evil into peace; I the LORD do all these things.

JLT translation

I think Jesus is the one trying to organize evil. God cannot look on anything that is evil remember? Cannot stand the presence of it. Another reason that a mediator is needed...

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the cresurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:8 )

Only after we are perfected through Christ can we be admitted into the presence of God.

[Bat-Man]

I just realized that Isa 45 is not even talking about God... "the Lord" is Jesus, not God...

Yes, the Lord is Jesus, but Jesus is also God. They are one.

I think Jesus is the one trying to organize evil.

He's not just trying. He is doing it... under the direction of our Father.

God cannot look on anything that is evil remember?

He can look on it just as much as Jesus does. The idea is that neither one of them can tolerate it, in the sense of thinking that evil is okay. He can look at it, and realize what it is, and even forgive us for it if we repent and turn away from it.

Cannot stand the presence of it. Another reason that a mediator is needed...

Yes, but when our Lord mediates for us He is not worried about catching anything evil from us.

A mediator was needed to satisfy the demands of justice of God, our Father, while providing us with a way to obtain mercy.

Only after we are perfected through Christ can we be admitted into the presence of God.

That is right.

[changed]

Yes, the Lord is Jesus, but Jesus is also God. They are one.

They are one .... in spirit..

He's not just trying. He is doing it... under the direction of our Father.

He can look on it just as much as Jesus does. The idea is that neither one of them can tolerate it,

in the sense of thinking that evil is okay. He can look at it, and realize what it is, and even forgive us for it if we repent and turn away from it.

Yes, but when our Lord mediates for us He is not worried about catching anything evil from us.

A mediator was needed to satisfy the demands of justice of God, our Father, while providing us with a way to obtain mercy.

That is right.

Agree...

the point is, They are not responsible for the existence of evil. They are cleaning up a mess They did not make. They are forming what has eternally existed.

[Bat-Man]

They are one .... in spirit..

Heh, they are one in every way in which two can be one while being two and not only one.

That is how.

Agree...

the point is, They are not responsible for the existence of evil. They are cleaning up a mess They did not make. They are forming what has eternally existed.

We now seem to be one on this issue.

[changed]

bump.

2 Cor 5:1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[Honorentheos]

Hey, changed.

The thread I was involved in previously on this topic was titled "Celestial Seasonings" if you wish to search for it and read through it. Most of it is pretty convoluted and there is not much of a cohesive flow to the overall thread. I think I entered it around page 4. Most of my thoughts can be found there scattered among the debris.

I've read through this thread (it was a lot of reading) and there are some interesting thoughts brought forward. I'm not sure what you were interested in my commenting on, specifically.

There are a number of thought experiments that I have used to consider the issue of evil, the pre-existence, agency, justice, and mercy. The results are usually one of two things -

First, either God can not be just because there is a difference in the spirit/intelligence/ur-intelligence that we cannot account for that pre-dispossess some to eventually fail to achieve celestial glory while others are more naturally predisposed to become exalted.

Second, to get around this, a being has to either have had agency to choose it's own beginning (and how can this be possible and why would they choose to be disadvantaged?) at some point in their first moment of self-awareness or been given the exact same disposition and had the exact same experiences in the pre-existence to justify any future discrepancies in advantage that occur in this life. Yet if this is the case, why would any being choose wrong over good in the pre-existence? What could they possibly base such a choice on?

I think in this case, I should also explain that I am conflicted about being too forward with my thoughts.

My conflict comes from the unintended consequences of these sorts of discussions on anonymous message boards. Personally, I do not think the church is bad, and being agnostic I do not think any religion has a direct path back to God that I would wish someone else to pursue. I was raised in the church and in many ways am better for it. If I knew you in real life, we would probably have interesting discussions and I would use a lot of discretion in saying anything that would hurt your obvious enthusiasm and benefits you have found in the faith.

Call it what you will, my instinct is that I should just let this one lay as it is.