Simon Son Of Jona's New Name--kefa

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

When Jesus met Simon son of Jona, he gave him a new name--Cephas. "Cephas" (Aramaic--kefa) is the equivalent of "Peter." The name means "stone." According to Hugh Nibley, kefa is an Aramaic word that refers to a green crystal used for divination. In other words, kefa doesn't just mean "stone" but more precisely it means "seer stone."

The Joseph Smith Translation of John 1:42 is more interesting now, isn't it?

"And [Andrew] brought [Peter] to Jesus, and When Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation, a seer, or a stone..."

So, two questions:

Is Hugh Nibley right about kefa?

If so, how do you explain Joseph Smith's uncanny ability to get these things right?

[urroner]

When Jesus met Simon son of Jona, he gave him a new name--Cephas. "Cephas" (Aramaic--kefa) is the equivalent of "Peter." The name means "stone." According to Hugh Nibley, kefa is an Aramaic word that refers to a green crystal used for divination. In other words, kefa doesn't just mean "stone" but more precisely it means "seer stone."

The Joseph Smith Translation of John 1:42 is more interesting now, isn't it?

"And [Andrew] brought [Peter] to Jesus, and When Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation, a seer, or a stone..."

So, two questions:

Is Hugh Nibley right about kefa?

If so, how do you explain Joseph Smith's uncanny ability to get these things right?

This is interesting, but I know nothing about Aramaic.

[LeSellers]

When Jesus met Simon son of Jona, he gave him a new name--Cephas. "Cephas" (Aramaic--kefa) is the equivalent of "Peter." The name means "stone." According to Hugh Nibley, kefa is an Aramaic word that refers to a green crystal used for divination. In other words, kefa doesn't just mean "stone" but more precisely it means "seer stone."

...

Is Hugh Nibley right about kefa?

It would help if we had the Aramaic spelling, transliterated so we can actually use it (my grasp of the Hebrew alephbet is shaky at best).

Then we could try to put the meanings of the letters together to see if it is possible to construct some viable meaning beyond "stone/rock". I'm assuming kaph pe (fe) aleph. We get "palm" (of the hand), "mouth", "ox". I can see the beginnings of a reasonable definition of "seer" or "seer stone", but this is based on very rudimentary Hebrew, not even Aramaic. I wouldn't bet more than 2

[Ron Beron]

When Jesus met Simon son of Jona, he gave him a new name--Cephas. "Cephas" (Aramaic--kefa) is the equivalent of "Peter." The name means "stone." According to Hugh Nibley, kefa is an Aramaic word that refers to a green crystal used for divination. In other words, kefa doesn't just mean "stone" but more precisely it means "seer stone."

The Joseph Smith Translation of John 1:42 is more interesting now, isn't it?

"And [Andrew] brought [Peter] to Jesus, and When Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation, a seer, or a stone..."

So, two questions:

Is Hugh Nibley right about kefa?

If so, how do you explain Joseph Smith's uncanny ability to get these things right?

A little backwards, but kefa is from the Greek Κηφᾶς, Cephas is from the Aramaic.

[LeSellers]

A little backwards, but kefa is from the Greek Κηφᾶς, Cephas is from the Aramaic.

I don't understand your point here.

The English transliteration "Cephas" comes to us through the Greek translation (also a transliteration) of the Aramaic that Jesus spoke. As I understand it, the endings of any Greek word, including proper nouns (names), vary depending on its use in the sentence: Apollos/Apollon/etc., the same as in Latin. That's where the final "s" in the Greek (and our English) came from. So "kefa" seems more likely to me, at least, to have been the original name Jesus gave His chief Apostle, and it's the word we have to define.

However, if you are right, then kefas just gives us a slightly different set of letters to work from: kaph pe (fe) sin. We get "palm" (of the hand), "mouth", "tooth". The /s/ might be samekh, instead, which would be "pillar". Either way, it still looks as if "seer" or "seer stone" is a possible definition.

Lehi

[Ron Beron]

I don't understand your point here.

The English transliteration "Cephas" comes to us through the Greek translation (also a transliteration) of the Aramaic that Jesus spoke. As I understand it, the endings of any Greek word, including proper nouns (names), vary depending on its use in the sentence: Apollos/Apollon/etc., the same as in Latin. That's where the final "s" in the Greek (and our English) came from. So "kefa" seems more likely to me, at least, to have been the original name Jesus gave His chief Apostle, and it's the word we have to define.

However, if you are right, then kefas just gives us a slightly different set of letters to work from: kaph pe (fe) sin. We get "palm" (of the hand), "mouth", "tooth". The /s/ might be samekh, instead, which would be "pillar". Either way, it still looks as if "seer" or "seer stone" is a possible definition.

Lehi

I did some double checking on this, because ostensibly you make a lot of sense. Cephas is indeed Greek, but it is probably, as you mention, a transliteration of the Hebrew kefa which my "A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament" shows to me sole of the foot. My Hebrew is probably a lot like yours so I am stabbing in the dark. The passage would have read like this in Aramaic, "attah KEFA hu we'al KEFA den ebnyeh qehali" which is different than the Greek which reads, "KAGW DE SOI LEGW hOTI SU EI PETROS KAI EPI TAUTH TH PETRA... And I also to you say that you are PETER(STONE) and on this ROCK" In one case Peter is referred to as a stone (pebble?) who will build a structure on rock.

From all evidence it seems we are both correct, but outside of Mormon sources I can find little that would indicate it means revelation. The search will continue...

[Arandur]

The passage would have read like this in Aramaic, "attah KEFA hu we'al KEFA den ebnyeh qehali" which is different than the Greek which reads, "KAGW DE SOI LEGW hOTI SU EI PETROS KAI EPI TAUTH TH PETRA... And I also to you say that you are PETER(STONE) and on this ROCK" In one case Peter is referred to as a stone (pebble?) who will build a structure on rock.

I am far from a scholar on this subject with very little knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, but I have been involved in several studies and lectures and read some material on this particular issue and passage.

It is my understanding that "kefa" was the original term used for both references to stone/rock, but that the writer, using Greek, applied "petros" vs. "petra" because of word gender issues. It would have been improper to call Simon "Petra" because it was a female word. Jesus, in using the Aramaic "kefa," used the same word to rename Simon and to refer to his founding of his Church. The usage of the terms refer to each other. It is my understanding that this is (perhaps the most) commonly accepted view among Biblical scholars today, as well, (not that I'm in touch with the community enough to know myself, but I have taken it on the words of several different people that are better connected).

While there is often a tension between the original Scriptural language and the original spoken language it refers to (in that the authors of Scripture chose words in their own language for specific meanings and purposes to deliver Truth, even if the original spoken language may have used somewhat different ones), in this case the Greek choice seems grammatical rather than meaningful.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Thanks for all your input.

Back to the original questions:

1. Was Hugh Nibley right? Does kefa (Which is Cephas in the Greek) refer to a green crystal used in divination--a seer stone?

2. If so, what do you think of the JST of John 1:42? How did Joseph Smith "get it right"?

[LeSellers]

1. Was Hugh Nibley right? Does kefa (Which is Cephas in the Greek) refer to a green crystal used in divination--a seer stone?

I believe so, based on the extremely limited knowledge I have. I defer to Doctor Nibley on all such matters â?? his scholarship leaves mine at the starting line.

2. If so, what do you think of the JST of John 1:42? How did Joseph Smith "get it right"?

He was a prophet. I need say no more.

And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon, the son of Jona, thou shalt be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation, a seer, or a stone.

It falls directly in line with Dr. Nibley's assertion, fer shure. But I believe it does more. It is Jesus giving Peter the calling of seer, not only an Apostle, the chief Apostle, leader of the Church.

Lehi

[soren]

From all evidence it seems we are both correct, but outside of Mormon sources I can find little that would indicate it means revelation. The search will continue...

A lot of patristic sources come very close to the Mormon reading and say the "rock" is Peter's testimony. That has long been the favored reading in Eastern Orthodox theology. Pope Benedict XVI recently said in a sermon that "rock" should be interpreted more broadly than just indicating Peter and that Chirst is also the Rock. In the course of his discussion, he included Peter's testimony among several interpretations that are simultaneously valid. That doesn't quite amount to "revelation," but it is at least near to it.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

1. Was Hugh Nibley right? Does kefa (Which is Cephas in the Greek) refer to a green crystal used in divination--a seer stone?

[...]

Sorry for the slight derail, but if he is correct, I think this gives an interesting added insight to the "rock" (Matthew 16) that Christ would build His church upon (maybe... maybe not).

I found this out there in the realms of the internets (don't know the reliability, or if they are dependent upon Nibley):

Saint Peter's original name of Simon or שמעון comes from the Hebrew language meaning hearkening and listening. In standard Hebrew it is pronounced as {{unicode|

[jwhitlock]

A lot of patristic sources come very close to the Mormon reading and say the "rock" is Peter's testimony. That has long been the favored reading in Eastern Orthodox theology. Pope Benedict XVI recently said in a sermon that "rock" should be interpreted more broadly than just indicating Peter and that Chirst is also the Rock. In the course of his discussion, he included Peter's testimony among several interpretations that are simultaneously valid. That doesn't quite amount to "revelation," but it is at least near to it.

I wonder how much of this interpretation by PB16 is related to the ingoing dissonance between east and west concerning the claim of Papal authority from Peter.

[Ron Beron]

Sorry for the slight derail, but if he is correct, I think this gives an interesting added insight to the "rock" (Matthew 16) that Christ would build His church upon (maybe... maybe not).

I found this out there in the realms of the internets (don't know the reliability, or if they are dependent upon Nibley):

Spiritus-Temporis.com

The exact same thing can be found here: St. Francis of Assisi Catholic Church

Ya gotta love the internet...interesting. I checked some of the entries under kefa and they all seem to be quoting the same source....Nibley. I wonder where this original claim of his came from? Any sources for it?

[Ron Beron]

Ya gotta love the internet...interesting. I checked some of the entries under kefa and they all seem to be quoting the same source....Nibley. I wonder where this original claim of his came from? Any sources for it?

I have been looking at all sources and I cannot find any reference to kefa and green stone. Any help?

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Steuss, you are the man!Does anyone know where Nibley made the claim? Is there a reference? I'd like to know where the idea originates to see if it is accurate or not. If it is, dare I say it....? It would appear to be another bullz-eye

[LeSellers]

Ya gotta love the internet...interesting. I checked some of the entries under kefa and they all seem to be quoting the same source....Nibley. I wonder where this original claim of his came from?

Given Bro Nibley's erudition, I'd say he

1. knew the Aramaic well enough from his studies to make the connection
   or
   
2. did an analysis similar to the one I proposed earlier here
   or
   
3. both
   

Lehi

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]Does anyone know where Nibley made the claim? Is there a reference? I'd like to know where the idea originates to see if it is accurate or not. [...]

If no one is able to provide it by day's end, I will check the indexes of my Nibley volumes tonight when I get home (in the hopes that Cephas/Kefa is indexed in one of them).

[Ron Beron]

Given Bro Nibley's erudition, I'd say he

1. knew the Aramaic well enough from his studies to make the connection
   or
   
2. did an analysis similar to the one I proposed earlier here
   or
   
3. both
   

Lehi

Both? Maybe...I would just like to know where he got the source. I did a check on his writings and found only one reference to it in "Messages..." and it only refers to it tangentially not directly. I'm not challenging your scholarship at all just the conclusion which I have some doubts about. When I looked up kefa I found all kinds of words, none of which related to stone. I am in a quandary.

A little more...While Kepha (Aramaic) = Rock, evna (Aramaic) = little pebbles. Both are found in the passage, but nothing about seer stones. To JS translation I can only agree without explanation.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

If no one is able to provide it by day's end, I will check the indexes of my Nibley volumes tonight when I get home (in the hopes that Cephas/Kefa is indexed in one of them).

Steuss, you're the man!

[LeSellers]

I'm not challenging your scholarship at all ...

Well, there's your problem!

just the conclusion which I have some doubts about.

I pretend to no "scholarship" in Hebrew at all. At best, I'm a dabbler. As to Aramaic, phuttt, don't even dabble, or pretend to.

My point, and I'm not trying to push it much, is that Bro Nibley is (or was) capable of making his own statements, and defending them. In this case, it happens that he supports the JST in ways that would be unexpected.

Lehi

[jwhitlock]

Steuss, you are the man!Does anyone know where Nibley made the claim? Is there a reference? I'd like to know where the idea originates to see if it is accurate or not. If it is, dare I say it....? It would appear to be another bullz-eye

What you're looking for may be from p.121 of "The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyption Endowment". Here's the passage:

J. Ford calls the stone of Peter and Abraham "the Jewel of Discernment" (Bibl. Ztschr., 11:109), thus lending belated support to Joseph Smith's interpretation of John 1:42: "Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is, by interpretation a seer or a stone" (Inspired Translation). The image of Peter the Rock, now viewed as an old and authentic Hebrew concept (D. Flusser, in Bleeker, Initn., pp. 138-43) throws a new light on a remarkable account of the setting apart of Peter found in one of the oldest of Christian writings, the Gospel of the Twelve Apostles, in which the Lord says to Peter, "Come to me on this stone, that I might give thee a blessing and a name in all the world." Peter then sits on the stone; the Lord proceeds to pronounce over him something like the Opening of the Mouth formula: "Thy head shall never pain thee, neither shall thine eyes fail thee, nor thy fingers falter, etc." (Patrol. Or., 147). And the name he gives him is Peter-Seer-stone, Stone of Truth. He gave him that name in return for Peter's recognition "that Jesus was Anointed" (R. W. Riddle, JBL, 59:178), while the talk of gates and keys refers to "much desired admission to ... the Temple," with special "contrast between the inescapable mass of the dead and the community of the living" (V. Burch, JBL, 52:148f); the whole episode must be viewed in "the Temple context," according to Burch (p. 150). There is much evidence that all important Matthew 16:18ff refers to temple work as understood by the Latter-day Saints. The Coptic Apocryphon of Adam says that in the last days the Righteous will be found "upon a high mountain, upon a Stone of Truth (hijn ou-petra nteme), and be accordingly named (or the mountain and stone will be named) "the Words of Immortality and Truth" (Apoc. of Adam 85[79]).

I didn't find anything in what I had for "kepha" or "kefa".

[USU78]

It falls directly in line with Dr. Nibley's assertion, fer shure. But I believe it does more. It is Jesus giving Peter the calling of seer, not only an Apostle, the chief Apostle, leader of the Church.

Not necessarily. All of the modern apostles are called as "Prophets, Seers, and Revelators," aren't they?

[USU78]

From the Wiki on the Aramaic spoken by the Master:

Cephas (Κηφας)

John 1:42

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John, you shall be called Cephas", which is translated 'Peter'. (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 1:12

But I say that each of you says "I am of Paul", or "I am of Apollos", or "I am of Cephas", or "I am of Christ".

Galatians 1:18 NRSV

Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days;

In these passages, 'Cephas' is given as the nickname of the apostle better known as Simon Peter. The Greek word is transliterated Κηφᾶς (Kēph

[Ron Beron]

What you're looking for may be from p.121 of "The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyption Endowment". Here's the passage:

I didn't find anything in what I had for "kepha" or "kefa".

This is exactly what I found. Nibley continues later in the text to mention seer stones associated with Egyptian magic, but nothing directly attributable to kefa. It may be a case of a conflation of two separate ideas connected in the same context of the text.

[cksalmon]

Ya gotta love the internet...interesting. I checked some of the entries under kefa and they all seem to be quoting the same source....Nibley. I wonder where this original claim of his came from? Any sources for it?

Me, too.

Where did it come from?

Can someone provide a source?

cks