Massacre At Mountain Meadows

[Pahoran]

And that was my original point.. The Church has the resources to make available millions of birth and death records from all over the world. It ought to be able to make journals from Mormon pioneers that are in its archives.

Apples and oranges, Taky. Redeeming the dead is a key part of the Church's mission. Gratifying the idle curiosity of the terminally negative is not.

Regards,

Pahoran

[TAK]

Whom would you send into the church archives to find all this truth. Despite the authers claim at automony you and others from the site that won't be mention claim comspiracy to hide and mislead by general authorities. You want to send in your own; however if said individual is restricted from any section of the archive again conspiracy; should we send in Sandra Tanner? Maybe we could just send you in, and by the way why you are at it could get into the Vatican's archives, or US Goverments archives, or even the Russian goverments archives I,m sure there is some great history in those archives also? And what about your personal records...possible some great history there?

It does not have to be sent anywhere.. publish it on the internet like the chuch does for birth and death records or maybe like Google does books. Let people go find the journals they never knew existed from their GGG - grandmother.

Apples and oranges, Taky. Redeeming the dead is a key part of the Church's mission. Gratifying the idle curiosity of the terminally negative is not.Regards,Pahoran

But I believe edifying the saints is..

[TAK]

In addition to the recent book on Mountain Meadows, I think an initiative such as the massive Joseph Smith Papers Project currently going on indicates your notion that the Church is locking up its history is based more on legend, lore and supposition than on fact.

Great!

I am afraid the notion that things get locked up however stems from you and others claiming the right to be selective in its disclosure ...

[Scott Lloyd]

But I believe edifying the saints is..

This assumes that the saints are not being edified. Or that TAK gets to be the one to define what constitutes being edified.

[Scott Lloyd]

Great!

I am afraid the notion that things get locked up however stems from you and others claiming the right to be selective in its disclosure ...

No. It stems from the pathological cynicism of antagonists who won't recognize any good faith effort by the Church, not matter what form it takes. Exhibit A: The 50-plus page Exercise in Vacuity over at the Shady Rest.

[TAK]

No. It stems from the pathological cynicism of antagonists who won't recognize any good faith effort by the Church, not matter what form it takes. Exhibit A: The 50-plus page exercise in vacuity over at the Shady Rest.

yea whatever..

[gmormon]

It does not have to be sent anywhere.. publish it on the internet like the chuch does for birth and death records or maybe like Google does books. Let people go find the journals they never knew existed from their GGG - grandmother. But I believe edifying the saints is..

Great whom are you going to trust to put all this on the internet? Apparently you don't trust the church to allow three members of the church to do it or to write a book about it. Again who is this great unbiased individual that you are going to place in this position, and BTW someone whom everybody else out there with a conspiracy therey (sp) will trust, are you available? I am still waiting on your documents

[ttribe]

And that was my original point.. The Church has the resources to make available millions of birth and death records from all over the world. It ought to be able to make journals from Mormon pioneers that are in its archives.

But the Church is not exclusively responsible for the accumulation and publication of such records. Many of those records are are from census and military files maintained by governments; the Church simply makes them available in one spot. Surely you can appreciate the difference.

[Scott Lloyd]

But the Church is not exclusively responsible for the accumulation and publication of such records. Many of those records are are from census and military files maintained by governments; the Church simply makes them available in one spot. Surely you can appreciate the difference.

Never mind. It makes a good bumper-sticker-style slogan, and I'm sure that's why it appeals to TAK.

[gmormon]

yea whatever..

Actually Scott I like this one better as a bumper sticker.

[Scott Lloyd]

Actually Scott I like this one better as a bumper sticker.

I was about to suggest that it was better suited for the Exercise in Vacuity.

[gmormon]

I was about to suggest that it was better suited for the Exercise in Vacuity.

Scott if we are going to start this exercise program here may I suggest Richard Simmons to be our exercise guru?

[Scott Lloyd]

In addition to the recent book on Mountain Meadows, I think an initiative such as the massive Joseph Smith Papers Project currently going on indicates your notion that the Church is locking up its history is based more on legend, lore and supposition than on fact.

In making this post, I perhaps should have mentioned the inauguration of the Church Historian's Press, an unprecedented publishing venture in which archived content -- including installments of the Joseph Smith Papers Project -- will be widely published in coming years for the consumption of everyone, anti-Mormons included.

But I'm sure that won't be enough to quell the invincible mental image among the Church's antagonists of sinister and insular gatekeepers hording the Church's historical materials. They find the notion, however unfounded it might be, just too delicious to discard.

Scott if we are going to start this exercise program here may I suggest Richard Simmons to be our exercise guru?

He'll have to sub out the '70s style jogging shorts.

[gmormon]

In making this post, I perhaps should have mentioned the inauguration of the Church Historian's Press, an unprecedented publishing venture in which archived content -- including installments of the Joseph Smith Papers Project -- will be widely published in coming years for the consumption of everyone, anti-Mormons included.

But I'm sure that won't be enough to quell the invincible mental image among the Church's antagonists of sinister and insular gatekeepers hording the Church's historical materials. They find the notion, however unfounded it might be, just too delicious to discard.

Will the "Church Historian's Press" be taking on other churches archives ? We do want to be fair about this and get all that history out in the open .

[Pahoran]

Great!

I am afraid the notion that things get locked up however stems from you and others claiming the right to be selective in its disclosure ...

You're absolutely right, Taky.

Because, of course, this right is never claimed as a response to some idiotic conspiracy theory about how the Church must have "something to hide" if it treats its archives as unique and irreplaceable documents, and not as a neighbourhood garage sale.

Is it?

Regards,

Pahoran

[gmormon]

Tak

What qualifications if any would place on a individual or individuals to enter college/university library archives, state/federal archives, or someones private archive? What qualifications do they need to handle these documents/artifacts? Should they be unrestricted in there access, or should they be supervized?

[gmormon]

Have any of you read "House of Mourning: A Biocultural History of the Mountain Meadows Massacre"? Does it add any value to the MMM dicussion?

Here is a link to a review http://byustudies.byu.edu/Reviews/Pages/re...px?reviewID=679

[TAK]

Tak

What qualifications if any would place on a individual or individuals to enter college/university library archives, state/federal archives, or someones private archive? What qualifications do they need to handle these documents/artifacts? Should they be unrestricted in there access, or should they be supervized?

I think every institution should set its own standards.. It was pointed out that Huntington Library had 1700 scholars study there last year. I think if you go back and look at my comments â?? the suggestion was for LDS archives; since the Church has the capacity to make millions of birth and death records available to anyone, they could make similar allowances for Church historical documents via the internet. Nobody need handle original documents.

You asked :

Have any of you read "House of Mourning: A Biocultural History of the Mountain Meadows Massacre"? Does it add any value to the MMM dicussion?

Here is a link to a review http://byustudies.byu.edu/Reviews/Pages/re...px?reviewID=679

No I have not.

I am currently reading Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West, 1847-1896, but I will look at it sometime.

[gmormon]

I think every institution should set its own standards.. It was pointed out that Huntington Library had 1700 scholars study there last year. I think if you go back and look at my comments â?? the suggestion was for LDS archives; since the Church has the capacity to make millions of birth and death records available to anyone, they could make similar allowances for Church historical documents via the internet. Nobody need handle original documents. ...

I posted this reply to a previous post of yours same question is valid

Great whom are you going to trust to put all this on the internet? Apparently you don't trust the church to allow three members of the church to do it or to write a book about it. Again who is this great unbiased individual that you are going to place in this position, and BTW someone whom everybody else out there with a conspiracy therey (sp) will trust, are you available? I am still waiting on your documents

I know you have read Bagley's book on MMM, and I assume you read Brooks'. Have you read any of the others Denton, Wise...?

[erastus]

I finally have my copy. It is signed by the authors too (from the St. George Barnes & Noble signing)

I have only read the introduction so far.

[Scott Lloyd]

I finally have my copy. It is signed by the authors too (from the St. George Barnes & Noble signing)

I have only read the introduction so far.

Those guys are getting around.

[gmormon]

I finally have my copy. It is signed by the authors too (from the St. George Barnes & Noble signing)

I have only read the introduction so far.

Those guys are getting around.

So when are they getting to Oregon?

[Scott Lloyd]

So when are they getting to Oregon?

That hotbed of secularism? Why would they want to go there?

[gmormon]

That hotbed of secularism? Why would they want to go there?

To counter balance "Time Out for Women" I need something to do out here, and it's not as easy for us here on the left coast to get togehter I have heard rumors of a FARMS Symposium though just don't know when or where....

[Scott Lloyd]

Massacre at Mountain Meadows has been in bookstores for well over a month now. I've been looking for some sort of response from Will Bagley, who had plenty to say about the book before it was published.

I found some quoted comments in this NPR report:

"They [Turley and his co-authors] raise the critical question: What makes otherwise decent men commit atrocities like this?" notes Will Bagley, historian and author of Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows.

"As a historian, I think their biggest failing is their failure to look at the religious elements in all this."

Bagley, who was raised Mormon but is no longer practicing, cites the role of obedience in the Mormon faith and in the massacre. Attackers said they did what they were told by religious superiors, who demanded strict obedience in 1857 and who were believed to have divine authority.

Mormon leaders also delivered stern, sometimes violent, talks condemning the non-Mormons who were then considered threats. Some of those talks were given in and around Cedar City, Utah, just before the massacre.

"These people did it not because they were ignoring their religion," Bagley contends.

"They did it because they believed they were living their religion. I see this as a religiously motivated act of violence."

Bagley also firmly believes that Mormon prophet Brigham Young ordered the massacre, but he acknowledges there's no solid evidence of that. He believes the validity of the Mormon faith is at stake when explaining the Mountain Meadows massacre.

"[The massacre] raises so many tough questions about the religion and its divine authenticity," says Bagley. "It makes you wonder that if this thing could happen in the religion, doesn't it challenge the whole notion that we Mormons are God's chosen people?"

Bagley's notion that members of God's covenant people would never do anything sinful or wicked is off base. The apostasy of the Israelites, God's ancient covenant people is well-attested in scripture.

Moreover, like Jon Krakauer and others, Bagley fails to acknowledge the massacre for what it is, an anomaly in Church history, instead, seeing it as endemic within the Mormon faith.

I find it interesting that, according to this report, Bagley is now acknowledging there is "no solid evidence" of Brigham Young's complicity in the massacre. I was under the impression his book purportedly exposed a smoking gun pertaining to Brigham Young's involvement.

Here's a link to the entire NPR piece:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...toryId=94509868