Are All Truths Equally Useful For Everything?

[stillsmallvoices]

From my experience I have learned that all truths have a time and a place. Some people can be hurt by the same truth that others are improved from hearing and studying.

So I think it is wise to put these truths in their perspectives. We have to remember that most people are not going to do the research and study to hear from both sides so they can make a balanced and honest decision.

The way it happens is one side studies more then the other and i am talking about the harder controversial issues.

So I imagine a majority of those who are obsessed with a few parts of history are the same whole fall away or struggle with a testimony and the ones that only concentrate on the "faith promoting stuff" are the ones more immediate disturbed by it which leads to taking extreme sides which is never a good thing.

I have been victim of the latter and my own ignorance to some things so I know and its not a good feeling to be shocked surprised when you buy into a false reality.

Just my 2cents.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Will Bagley, who hasn't seen it any more than I have, has already leveled fierce criticism at the forthcoming two-volume treatment of the Mountain Meadows Massacre by Leonard, Turley, and Walker.

I thought it was consolidated into one volume.

The Church could not possibly construct a curriculum for its history that would satisfy its enemies or even secularizing historians.

Agreed.

[Scott Lloyd]

The huge Joseph Smith Papers project that is underway has already been attacked on various message boards as dishonest, manipulative, and the like. Actually seeing it when it appears would only cloud the judgment of such critics.

What I find utterly astounding is that people are saying -- on this thread in particular -- the the project only shows that the Church has hidden the papers away and is only now uncovering them. In reality, the material has been accessible for a long time, not just at the Church archives but in various far-flung repositories, and is now being compiled and published under the auspices of the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

So what ought to be seen as a generous and momentous boon to scholarly research and knowledge is being treated with unwarranted cynicism and contempt.

I thought it was consolidated into one volume.

Not unless things have changed since I was in Turley's office last year. He pointed to a shelf full of looseleaf binders and said, "There is volume 2."

[Scott Lloyd]

From my experience I have learned that all truths have a time and a place. Some people can be hurt by the same truth that others are improved from hearing and studying.

So I think it is wise to put these truths in their perspectives. We have to remember that most people are not going to do the research and study to hear from both sides so they can make a balanced and honest decision.

The way it happens is one side studies more then the other and i am talking about the harder controversial issues.

So I imagine a majority of those who are obsessed with a few parts of history are the same whole fall away or struggle with a testimony and the ones that only concentrate on the "faith promoting stuff" are the ones more immediate disturbed by it which leads to taking extreme sides which is never a good thing.

I have been victim of the latter and my own ignorance to some things so I know and its not a good feeling to be shocked surprised when you buy into a false reality.

Just my 2cents.

It's the whole Hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis paradigm that Dr. Peterson mentioned earlier on this thread.

[jwhitlock]

Two points. First my experience has been that people actually do leave because of the shock, disillusionment or what have you. There is typically not some underlying sin or other reason. Many of these people are profoundly sad when this happens.

Interesting. My experience is that those who leave because they feel they've been "deceived" are profoundly angry - not sad. And when I point out to them that their reasons for leaving are based on faulty information, they get angrier still.

Second, I have made concrete suggestions. At least three or four times. I will repeat. I would take a book like RSR or perhaps a parred down version, add to it post JS issues that seem to cause the most problems for people and then use it as a historical text for a course in seminary at the senior level in high school. I would also design a similar course for SS and let it be an optional course to attend instead of gospel doctrine. Additionally I would add a set of six discussions to he missionary lessons to deal with difficult issues and again select the most prominent ones that seem to cause the most concern. Personally I think all investigators should have to read the BoM, D&C, P of GP and a book like RSR before they are allowed to be baptized.

I don't consider this to be realistic - especially as it dilutes the primary purpose of missionary work in helping investigators gain a testimony. In addition, such reading requirements are going to eliminate a significant number of people for the simple reason that they can't or don't read that volume of material in any reasonable time frame.

RSR, in reality, is a niche study. It looks at Joseph Smith - not the Church - from a cultural influence standpoint. It is valuable, but could not be summarized in any reasonable time frame for the use you suggest. And since it would only be a very small part of the "difficult issues" that you refer to (and have yet to be defined and agreed upon), you seriously underestimate the time frame that would be needed.

Again, I refer to investigator lessons as the focus of my remarks. I really don't consider seminary or Sunday School curriculum to need much tuning, because in reality a wide variety of things often do come up and are explored or referred to in such venues. I consider the Sunday School, Priesthood / RS lessons to be catalysts for personal study, for the most part. We just can't usually dig into anything in depth in the time provided. Topics are picked and chosen, for the most part, depending on the manuals and the individuals / teachers involved.

You appear to be targeting an audience that conforms generally, in some respect, to your own perspective and outlook about things. I don't think you're considering the fact that people's needs differ widely. I also think that you underestimate how much really gets referred to and discussed in a general way in the standard curriculum, at least on a topical basis. And I think that the structure you are proposing for an in depth treatment of "issues" for both investigators and members is simply unrealistic, given the time constraints involved. Were the Church to structure something as you suggest, the bulk of the time would be spent on "issues" and not on the real meat of the gospel, including the spiritual foundation which is of primary importance.

Oh and a third point. I would rather use methods to keep members strong the positing that these issues are weeding out the tares.

I'm not sure I understand.

[jwhitlock]

You are entitled to your opinion. I am not sure where you live. But where I do the convert rate is dismal, many who join are very poor and often have major social and emotional issues and we lose about 60% or more of them. Now I am all for the gospel going to the poor and needy so do not mistake me. But so many are ill prepared and so hard to keep. I would like to think there is a better way or some way to do this better. My suggestion may be all wet. But at least it is a suggestion and I see little offered here.

I don't see people with financial, social and emotional issues conducting in-depth intellectual studies of the history and issues of the Church in any meaningful fashion, along with doing extensive non-fiction reading.

I'm confused. These people appear to have a totally different set of needs than what this thread is talking about.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Not unless things have changed since I was in Turley's office last year. He pointed to a shelf full of looseleaf binders and said, "There is volume 2."

My wife is going to kill me.

This reminds me, though. Someone in this thread I believe said that Turley had neglected damning evidence in his book on the Hoffman incidents, Victims. I issued a CFR and never heard back. Did anyone see an answer to the CFR? The more I thought about it, the more I realized what a heavy accusation it was.

Essentially, Turley was accused of willfully misrepresenting or lying in his book Victims, and if not that, the person indicated that Turley didn't even write it, but that a ghost writer did. Anyone?

[stillsmallvoices]

Scott, any word on when the Joseph Smith Papers project will be complete and volumes available for sale, or how is that going to work. Anxious to read the Prophets words and thoughts on things.

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott, any word on when the Joseph Smith Papers project will be complete and volumes available for sale, or how is that going to work. Anxious to read the Prophets words and thoughts on things.

Here is a quote from Elder Marlin K Jensen, Church Historian and member of the Seventy, in a March 1 Church News story I did:

Elder Jensen said, "We hope to have two volumes out by October general conference of this year, and then, hopefully, two or three volumes every year thereafter until we're finished." With 30 volumes, that would take 12-15 years to publish the entire collection, he said.

The Church has established a new publishing imprint called The Church Historian's Press. The Josesph Smith Papers will be the first product published under that new imprint.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Here is a quote from Elder Marlin K Jensen, Church Historian and member of the Seventy, in a March 1 Church News story I did:

My wife is, again, going to kill me.

[RDC]

My wife is, again, going to kill me.

I think we need to establish the "Blair Dee Hodges Endowment" for purchasing of LDS scholarly books. I'll throw in $20 if I can help chair the foundation. Paypal, anyone?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think we need to establish the "Blair Dee Hodges Endowment" for purchasing of LDS scholarly books. I'll throw in $20 if I can help chair the foundation. Paypal, anyone?

I'd love that!

I already sacrificed my music fund to books. I used to buy new cds all the time. Not anymore.

[Calm]

I've always thought that FAIR should establish a sort of library with the librarian having the privilege of keeping the books in his or her possession on the condition of doing any research required from time to time or possibly creating digital copies or databases for easy searching.

Maybe you should write up a proposal and apply to FAIR for a grant on this basis, Blair.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I like to color in all my books, though. Extensively.

[Scott Lloyd]

I like to color in all my books, though. Extensively.

My 2-year-old daughter is like that. Except that she likes to color in all my books.

[RDC]

My 2-year-old daughter is like that. Except that she likes to color in all my books.

Color!? You're lucky, when my daughter was two, she tore up all of Alma 31 in my scriptures. I guess she didn't think much of the Zoramites. (However, my wife did a bang up job of taping it back together. It's almost like it's laminated now! Any time I think of "upgrading" my scriptures to the larger version, I see that page and wax all nostalgic and change my mind...)

[LifeOnaPlate]

heh. You guys are old, with your "kids" and what not.

[RDC]

heh. You guys are old, with your "kids" and what not.

This reminded me of Bennet Brauer:

I guess your not "the norm"!

[jwhitlock]

heh. You guys are old, with your "kids" and what not.

Forget about kids. I keep my scriptures away from my grandkids.

[Scott Lloyd]

heh. You guys are old, with your "kids" and what not.

When I was single, I vowed never to succumb to the temptation to tell cute-kid stories. Let's just say, it'll happen to you, too.

[Scott Lloyd]

I thought it [Massacre at Mountain Meadows] was consolidated into one volume.

Not unless things have changed since I was in Turley's office last year. He pointed to a shelf full of looseleaf binders and said, "There is volume 2."

I just spoke with Rick Turley on the phone. As an incidental matter, I took occasion to clarify this. He said yes, a second volume is planned, but the book will not be publicized as a two-volume work, because they don't yet have a contract for a volume 2, and there is some reluctance on the part of readers to buy multi-volume books. If and when the second volume appears, it will be identified as a "sequel" to the one that's coming out this summer.

Also, I endeavored to pin him down on a publication date. He pulled up the Oxford Web site to confirm his understanding that it will be July 6.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Excellent. I hope you told him there are some smart folks on the Intarweb who have good theories about him having a ghost writer do Victims for him, and that his ghost writer purposefully left out damning evidence in order to protect the Church.

I wish to high heaven I could find out who that was. I CFR'd, they never answered, but I think that's an accusation grievous enough to warrant a full retraction or explanation.

[Scott Lloyd]

Excellent. I hope you told him there are some smart folks on the Intarweb who have good theories about him having a ghost writer do Victims for him, and that his ghost writer purposefully left out damning evidence in order to protect the Church.

I wish to high heaven I could find out who that was. I CFR'd, they never answered, but I think that's an accusation grievous enough to warrant a full retraction or explanation.

It might even be actionable, if one were a litigious sort.

[LifeOnaPlate]

It might even be actionable, if one were a litigious sort.

I'm just interested in calling them out, because they were clearly talking garbage with no substance. Thus, I feel a retraction would do them well. Come clean, you know who you are.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm just interested in calling them out, because they were clearly talking garbage with no substance. Thus, I feel a retraction would do them well. Come clean, you know who you are.

If someone gets a CFR, and he scurries away like a cockroach caught in a floodlight, it's a pretty good indication the claim was bogus. That's how I view it, anyway.