Nephites, Lamanites And Josephites

[poulsenll]

I am tired of politics.

When Lehi blessed his sons before his death, among other things, he blessed Joseph that his seed would never be destroyed.

2 Nephi 3:3, 23, 25

3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed.

23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art ablessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.

25 And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi, and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father. Amen.

At the end, Joseph's descendents were still numbered with the Nephites.

Morm. 1: 8

8 And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, who consisted of the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites; and this war was between the Nephites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites.

My question is, If the Lamanites destroyed all who believed in Christ, were they 1. destroyed or were they 2. among those who defected to the Lamanites or 3. was there a group of Josephites somewhere else that had been seperated from the group in Zarahemla and were thus preserved in order to hearken unto the words of the book.

Larry P

[Obiwan]

I don't think any LDS believes "every single" Nephite was destroyed.

Such has never been the case in history when such words are used.

It's simply that the Nephites as a PEOPLE were destroyed, not that there weren't any Nephites alive still.

[poulsenll]

I don't think any LDS believes "every single" Nephite was destroyed.

Such has never been the case in history when such words are used.

It's simply that the Nephites as a PEOPLE were destroyed, not that there weren't any Nephites alive still.

I agree but what about possibility #3?

Larry P

[Marmonboy]

When the Christians finally took back Spain in the 15th Century, they were rather harsh with non-Christians, requiring them to either convert, leave, or be persecuted. Many Jews went through the motions of becoming Catholic, but secretly held on to Jewish traditions. Some of these Jews emigrated to the American southwest, especially New Mexico, after the 1600s. To this day there are some peculiar customs among the descentants of these crypto-Jews, as they are called. Many of them have no idea where these odd customs come from, they are just considered family traditions.

Maybe out there somewhere there are crypto-Nephites, who are nominally something else, but preserve in altered form some old traditions, the origin of which is lost to them.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am tired of politics.

When Lehi blessed his sons before his death, among other things, he blessed Joseph that his seed would never be destroyed.

At the end, Joseph's descendents were still numbered with the Nephites.

My question is, If the Lamanites destroyed all who believed in Christ, were they 1. destroyed or were they 2. among those who defected to the Lamanites or 3. was there a group of Josephites somewhere else that had been seperated from the group in Zarahemla and were thus preserved in order to hearken unto the words of the book.

Larry P

I think 2. and 3. seem the most likely. For what it is worth I would say its a little of 2 and a little of 3.

[LoudmouthMormon]

When Lehi blessed his sons before his death, among other things, he blessed Joseph that his seed would never be destroyed.

At the end, Joseph's descendents were still numbered with the Nephites.

Important word there, seed. Because as we all know, there were more ways to be considered a [someone]ite than just being a blood descendant of [someone].

Here are some examples of people being a [something]ite through ways OTHER than blood relation:

(4 Nephi 1:38 ) And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites

(4 Nephi 1:20) "And he kept it eighty and four years, and there was still peace in the land, save it were a small part of the people who had revolted from the church and taken upon them the name of Lamanites; therefore there began to be Lamanites again in the land."

(Alma 54:23-24) "I am Ammoron, and a descendant of Zoram, whom your fathers pressed and brought out of Jerusalem. And behold now, I am a bold Lamanite;..."

(Alma 43:4) "For behold, it came to pass that the Zoramites became Lamanites;"

(Moroni 9:24) "And if it so be that they perish, we know that many of our brethren have deserted over unto the Lamanites, and many more will also desert over unto them; wherefore, write somewhat a few things, if thou art spared and I shall perish and not see thee; but I trust that I may see thee soon; for I have sacred records that I would deliver up unto thee."

(D&C 10:48 ) "Yea, and this was their faithâ??that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions."

(Alma 45:14) "But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled."

My question is, If the Lamanites destroyed all who believed in Christ, were they 1. destroyed or were they 2. among those who defected to the Lamanites or 3. was there a group of Josephites somewhere else that had been seperated from the group in Zarahemla and were thus preserved in order to hearken unto the words of the book.

Again, you can be a descendant of Joseph without being a Josephite. You can be a descendant of Joseph who does not believe in Christ.

So, it comes down to: We don't know where the remaining descendants of Joseph may be, but there's nothing at all difficult, problematic, paradoxical, anti-scriptural, illogical, or fattening about the notion.

LM

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

At the end Lamnite and Nephite were political divisions, note only tribal. It was like the Civil War, brother against brother.

[poulsenll]

At the end Lamnite and Nephite were political divisions, note only tribal. It was like the Civil War, brother against brother.

I agree but as LMM pointed out, Lehi's blessing to Joseph was that his seed would survive to hear the words of the Book that I presume is the Book of Mormon. To me seed implies blood descendents rather than tribal affiliation.

When Jesus was about to leave the Nephites at Bountiful, He said that there were other sheep that he had to visit. Although many consider this to refer only to the 10 tribes, to me there is no reason to limit this to the 10 tribes as many who read the bible limit His statement there to only the 10 tribes and refuse to accept the Nephites as one of the other groups He planned on visiting in person.

Maybe there are some more records out there about His visits to other groups. And maybe some of the legends of different precolumbian American cultures are the only thing that remains with respect to such visits.

Larry P

[LoudmouthMormon]

Nobody's hung up on DNA here, are they?

You can be blood descendants of someone, and not share much of their DNA (as far as current science can tell, anyway...)

LM

[grego]

I'm sure there were some who left the Nephites and joined the Lamanites along the way, just as Nephi's, Jacob's, Zoram's, etc. descendants did, too.

[hagoth7]

My question is, If the Lamanites destroyed all who believed in Christ, were they 1. destroyed or were they 2. among those who defected to the Lamanites or 3. was there a group of Josephites somewhere else that had been seperated from the group in Zarahemla and were thus preserved in order to hearken unto the words of the book.

Door number three.

[hagoth7]

Maybe there are some more records out there about His visits to other groups.

There are.

[hagoth7]

I'll soon be looking for a few readers on a book about this topic. (An alpha version went up the flagpole awhile back, but the beta is near ready for prime time.) If any here are available to read it and comment on it, send me an IM.

[israelite]

I'll soon be looking for a few readers on a book about this topic. (An alpha version went up the flagpole awhile back, but the beta is near ready for prime time.) If any here are available to read it and comment on it, send me an IM.

All of the -ites were killed off except the Lamanites. The Josephites were a branch of the Nephites. All rejected Christ and were wiped out by the Lamanites fulfilling prophecy. Before Moroni buried the plates he said he was the last Nephite left.

[poulsenll]

All of the -ites were killed off except the Lamanites. The Josephites were a branch of the Nephites. All rejected Christ and were wiped out by the Lamanites fulfilling prophecy. Before Moroni buried the plates he said he was the last Nephite left.

Please read the OP. Lehi promised Joseph that his seed would not be utterrly destroyed.

3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed

I agree that the Nephites that lived in Zarahemla were destroyed but although Joseph's descendents were spoken of as part of the Nephites, this does not preclude the possibility of a portion of them being preserved. And what about all of the Nephites who migrated into the land northward at the time of Hagoth? Did they all come back and join the Nephites in Zarahemla before the war of destruction?

Alma 63:4

4 And it came to pass that in the *thirty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, there was a large company of men, even to the amount of five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was anorthward.

All of the prophecies about the Nephites were directed to those Nephites livimg in Zarahemla and we are told that the records of those who went north are not contained in the record written by Mormon.

Hel 3:14

But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.

See Hel 3:1-17 for more information about this northern migration.

Larry P

[grego]

And what about all of the Nephites who migrated into the land northward at the time of Hagoth?

Two separates here, I think--one being the land northward, the other one being the "lost" ships.

[poulsenll]

Two separates here, I think--one being the land northward, the other one being the "lost" ships.

Yes. The lost ship is interesting in that they never heard what happened to them. Some speculate that they ended up in the south seas however, if they survived they could be almost anywhere.

Larry P

[hagoth7]

Yes. The lost ship is interesting in that they never heard what happened to them. Some speculate that they ended up in the south seas however, if they survived they could be almost anywhere.

Larry P

Jacob 5 and other passages, including Alma 63 and passages in Helaman, demonstrate that there was a Nephite diaspora. Likewise, prophecies in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C require that some of the Nephite/Josephite/Jacobite peoples survived the destruction of the parent Nephite society described by Mormon and Moroni. Some of these passages have been discussed in previous threads.

[israelite]

If the Josephites survived then when the explorers reached the New World they would have found white people. The people they all found were brown skinned making them Native Americans(Lamanites). God stated thru out the whole BofM that if the Nephites stop believing then the Lamanites would wipe them off the face of the land. Yes, Lehi did bless Joseph and his posterity on the condition that they remain rightous. The Nephites(Josephites) did not so they were utterly destroyed by the Lamanites.

[hagoth7]

If the Josephites survived then when the explorers reached the New World they would have found white people. The people they all found were brown skinned making them Native Americans(Lamanites). God stated thru out the whole BofM that if the Nephites stop believing then the Lamanites would wipe them off the face of the land. Yes, Lehi did bless Joseph and his posterity on the condition that they remain rightous. The Nephites(Josephites) did not so they were utterly destroyed by the Lamanites.

The proposed premise above depends on two things:

1) Maintaining the paradigm that the diaspora was mainly restricted to the Americas. (A paradigm that runs counter to scripture.)

2) Dismissing a number of prophecies concerning the descendants of Lehi, Joseph, etc., including the 1828 prophecy below:

Section 3 of the D&C does say that Nephites were "destroyed", however one interpret that to mean, however, it does specifically say:

16 Nevertheless, my work shall go forth, for inasmuch as the knowledge of a Savior has come unto the world, through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the knowledge of a Savior come unto my peopleâ??

17 And to the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites, through the testimony of their fathersâ??

18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations.

19 And for this very purpose are these plates preserved, which contain these recordsâ??that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to his people;

If by their "destruction" it was meant that all the Nephites and Josephites were extinct over a thousand years ago...what then of this 1828 prophecy?

[hagoth7]

By way of more full disclosure, here is a passage where Alma says to his son Helaman that the people of Nephi would become extinct.

Alma 45

8 Then Alma said unto him: Blessed art thou; and the Lord shall prosper thee in this land.

9 But behold, I have somewhat to prophesy unto thee; but what I prophesy unto thee ye shall not make known; yea, what I prophesy unto thee shall not be made known, even until the prophecy is fulfilled; therefore write the words which I shall say.

10 And these are the words: Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in four hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in bunbelief.

11 Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become extinctâ??

12 Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and lasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the fourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.

13 And when that great day cometh, behold, the time very soon cometh that those who are now, or the seed of those who are now numbered among the people of Nephi, shall no more be numbered among the people of Nephi.

14 But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled.

Does this passage mean all Nephites?

Or does Alma's prophecy only relate to those of their people who "remain" in their land?

More importantly, if this prophecy doesn't exclude the Nephite diaspora, how does one explain D&C 3?

[charity]

If the Josephites survived then when the explorers reached the New World they would have found white people. The people they all found were brown skinned making them Native Americans(Lamanites). God stated thru out the whole BofM that if the Nephites stop believing then the Lamanites would wipe them off the face of the land. Yes, Lehi did bless Joseph and his posterity on the condition that they remain rightous. The Nephites(Josephites) did not so they were utterly destroyed by the Lamanites.

We don't need to believe that "Josephites" stayed alone as a distinct group, intermarrying only among themselves. Some Native Americans were "less brown" than others.

[grego]

Some speculate that they ended up in the south seas however, if they survived they could be almost anywhere.

Ahhh, you missed the Nephites in Europe thread... It was cool!

-=-=-=

If the Josephites survived then when the explorers reached the New World they would have found white people. The people they all found were brown skinned making them Native Americans(Lamanites).

When they went north, note that it mentions many of the Lamanites went, too. I wouldn't expect to find white people, though you might get a good mix. Well, IIRC, look to the Appalachians for that--a racial mix of dark, white, and black found by Europeans.

[poulsenll]

If the Josephites survived then when the explorers reached the New World they would have found white people. The people they all found were brown skinned making them Native Americans(Lamanites). God stated thru out the whole BofM that if the Nephites stop believing then the Lamanites would wipe them off the face of the land. Yes, Lehi did bless Joseph and his posterity on the condition that they remain rightous. The Nephites(Josephites) did not so they were utterly destroyed by the Lamanites.

Carefully read the scripture quoted in the OP. There is no condition for righteousness in Joseph's blessing that his seed would not be utterly destroyed.

Since when were Israelites classified as having white skins like the Scandinavians or Aryans. They were similar to the Arabs and Italians having an olive skin color and dark hair and eyes rather than being blond and blue eyed. My wife, a native of Mexico with Indian ancesters is often mistakenly thought to be an Italian.

Here is a picture of a native Arab

I would say that he is much darker than many native Americans. One of the characteristics of this race is the ability to develop a very dark skin color as a protection against the sun. Several of my children have inherited this trait from their mother.

The term "a dark and a loathsome people" as a desription of the Lamanites has more to do more with their cultural practices than it does with skin color just as white has to do with purity rather than skin color.

Larry P

[grego]

The term "a dark and a loathsome people" as a desription of the Lamanites has more to do more with their cultural practices than it does with skin color just as white has to do with purity rather than skin color.

Ahhhh, is it time for that thread again?