Js Manual -- Deletion From Wentworth Letter

[LifeOnaPlate]

Tick me off? I'm sorry, did my OP indicate that I was "tick[ed] off"? Just re-read it. Nope, does not indicate in any way that I am ticked off.

You will be, by the time I get through with you!

[mms]

mms isn't an anti, though. He can be critical, but I wouldn't call him an anti-Mormon.

I think this is too simplistic. I can't really put my finger on mms's motives. He could be honestly bothered by this, or perhaps trying to reconcile it with his view of what the manuals should say. He could be trying to stir the pot. He could be all sorts of things. It's better just to answer the question directly, than engage in it, selek, you know that, bro.

Thanks, LOAP. Looks like certain folks have decided to try to make things about me, again. They cannot help themselves. It is surreal, though, to be called an "anti" Mormon as I write this one more large check to that organization which I apparently oppose and prepare to give one more of the hundreds of lessons I have given in the Church (with no pressure from a spouse, family, etc. -- considering my siblings and parents would like little more than to see me "free" myself from this thing called Mormonism).

But I am not ticked off.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Thanks, LOAP. Looks like certain folks have decided to try to make things about me, again. They cannot help themselves. It is surreal, though, to be called an "anti" Mormon as I write this one more large check to that organization which I apparently oppose and prepare to give one more of the hundreds of lessons I have given in the Church (with no pressure from a spouse, family, etc. -- considering my siblings and parents would like little more than to see me "free" myself from this thing called Mormonism).

But I am not ticked off.

tsk tsk..

Matt 6:1-2

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

If you could meet selek in person you guys would likely get along swimmingly, and I mean that.

[selek]

If you could meet selek in person you guys would likely get along swimmingly, and I mean that.

I'm not sure which one of us should be offended by that.....

[mms]

tsk tsk..

Matt 6:1-2

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

If you could meet selek in person you guys would likely get along swimmingly, and I mean that.

I thought you might go to the whole "alms" thing. Here we go again. This is IN SECRET!!! I am ANONYMOUS! You've got to be friggin' kidding me. (Starting to get a little ticked off . . .)

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'm not sure which one of us should be offended by that.....

People are more gutless in person, you'd both cower into something gross like "esteeming one another as brothers," or something ridiculous like that.

I thought you might go to the whole "alms" thing. Here we go again. This is IN SECRET!!! I am ANONYMOUS! You've got to be friggin' kidding me. (Starting to get a little ticked off . . .)

But I know who you are.

[The Dude]

So you find it significant?

Well, Hammer, I didn't think it was significant because I forgot how long and detailed the Wentworth Letter is. You can see it here in case you've forgotten too:

The Wentworth Letter

Check it out. Ellipses and all.

Now that I appreciate how they printed 2,700+ words of the Wentworth Letter except this portion about the origin of humans in the Americas, yeah, I'd say it means something.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Well, Hammer, I didn't think it was significant because I forgot how long and detailed the Wentworth Letter is. You can see it here in case you've forgotten too:

The Wentworth Letter

Check it out. Ellipses and all.

Now that I appreciate how they printed 2,700+ words of the Wentworth Letter except this portion about the origin of humans in the Americas, yeah, I'd say it means something.

Did they quote about the part that says We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God?

[consiglieri]

Well, Hammer, I didn't think it was significant because I forgot how long and detailed the Wentworth Letter is. You can see it here in case you've forgotten too:

The Wentworth Letter

Check it out. Ellipses and all.

Now that I appreciate how they printed 2,700+ words of the Wentworth Letter except this portion about the origin of humans in the Americas, yeah, I'd say it means something.

I find myself in agreement.

When a lengthy document such as the Wentworth letter is quoted in its entirety, except for one paragraph, it is reasonable to conclude that the excised portion was excised for a particular purpose.

The question then becomes, What is the purpose?

It seems obvious, given the nature of the excised portion, that the purpose is to hide the fact that Joseph Smith understood the Book of Mormon as teaching that there were no others in the Americas when the Jaredites arrived; that there were still no others present when the Nephites took their place; and that the modern day "Indians" are the direct descendants of the Nephites.

DNA studies likely played a part in this editorial decision.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

I cannot say that I am completely comfortable with the correlation committee hiding information from the general membership.

But I suppose this would not be the first time for that little exercise.

--Consiglieri

[phaedrus ut]

I find myself in agreement.

When a lengthy document such as the Wentworth letter is quoted in its entirety, except for one paragraph, it is reasonable to conclude that the excised portion was excised for a particular purpose.

The question then becomes, What is the purpose?

It seems obvious, given the nature of the excised portion, that the purpose is to hide the fact that Joseph Smith understood the Book of Mormon as teaching that there were no others in the Americas when the Jaredites arrived; that there were still no others present when the Nephites took their place; and that the modern day "Indians" are the direct descendants of the Nephites.

--Consiglieri

Another question becomes who is more likely to know a true history of the people in the Book of Mormon?

Joseph was visited annually by not only Moroni but according to Joseph and other early church leaders he was also visited by Nephi, Alma, and Mormon. The Wentworth letter says:

The angel appeared to me three times the same night and unfolded the same things. After having received many visits from the angels of God unfolding the majesty and glory of the events that should transpire in the last days, on the morning of the 22nd of September, A.D. 1827, the angel of the Lord delivered the records into my hands

He knew enough of the history of the people of the America's to entertain his family with their stories. According to his mother he would share stories from his angelic instruction:

From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the sameâ?¦. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them(Smith, Lucy Mack. History of Joseph Smith)

Joseph then translated the Plates of Lehi and then the same story over from the Plates of Nephi. With all these resources there seems to be a growing need for some in the Church to hide or avoid what Joseph taught rather clearly in the Wentworth letter and numerous other places.

Is it reasonable to think that the man who was tutored personally by at least 4 BOM prophets, who translated the text of their arrival from two different perspectives, and who did this all by direct inspiration and revelation somehow can't even get the most basic details right?

Phaedrus

[selek]

People are more gutless in person, you'd both cower into something gross like "esteeming one another as brothers," or something ridiculous like that.

I am offended by this assertion. I'll have you know that I'm every bit as combatative and obnoxious in person as I am on these boards. It's part of the job requirement. And mms is already off the cookie list, so there's little more I can legally do to persecute him.

It's distinctly possible (however remote) that mms and I might find common ground if we were ever face to face, but it's equally probable (at least in my mind) that we'd start pushing and shoving trying to stake out the turf.

[Teancum]

I actually like threads like this.

It's amusing to see the anti's demanding that we read the minds of the authors and offer speculation (informed or not) about their possible motives.

They absolutely love trying to derive meaning and plots from the various tea leaves, yet they are the first to howl in a manner fit for the damned if we dare to levy the same methods against them.

Well it certainly seems that whoever wrote the manual did not want the fact the Joseph believed in the hemispheric model of the BoM emphasized and it taking this with the intro change it seems the Church is starting to back peddle from this position as well. It is also pretty clear that the majority of Church leaders believed about BoM people the same way Joseph did.

Was this idea ever doctrine? I do not know. It was at least taught and believed by most LDS for almost all the years the Church existed. So it seems the be a bit disingenuous to strike it out of the letter like it never existed. However, the Church seems to like to liberally edit things that are uncomfortable and flatly leave them out of official manuals.

So is this issue pertinent to salvation? Probably not though one might argue that it impact historicity issues for the BoM and since the BoM is a key to LDS truth it may have some bearing on that.

But so what if it is not pertinent to salvation? Edit everything out of Church manuals and sacrament talks and there is a lot that would be left out that is not pertinent to salvation? Since when is that a requirement for every word in every manual?

[selek]

Well it certainly seems that whoever wrote the manual did not want the fact the Joseph believed in the hemispheric model of the BoM emphasized and it taking this with the intro change it seems the Church is starting to back peddle from this position as well. It is also pretty clear that the majority of Church leaders believed about BoM people the same way Joseph did.

You are conveniently ignoring the statements that Joseph himself made discounting the hemispheric model.

It is convenient for you to do so, but it is also disingenuous.

Was this idea ever doctrine? I do not know. It was at least taught and believed by most LDS for almost all the years the Church existed. So it seems the be a bit disingenuous to strike it out of the letter like it never existed. However, the Church seems to like to liberally edit things that are uncomfortable and flatly leave them out of official manuals.

Pot, meet kettle. By ingoring evidence contrary to your polemics, you are committing the self-same sin of which you accuse us.

So is this issue pertinent to salvation? Probably not though one might argue that it impact historicity issues for the BoM and since the BoM is a key to LDS truth it may have some bearing on that.

Yet it it is you who is presenting a half-truth for polemical gain. There is a term for this. It uses the same prefix as the word hypostatic. Can you guess the rest?

[Calm]

.... the statements that Joseph himself made discounting the hemispheric model.

Knowing the inconsistent statements Joseph made over his lifetime, it seems to me his ideas changed with time (as would be expected if new information was given to him either through revelation or the more normal route of learning). The rest of the Wentworth letter, though, seems to me IIRC to be consistent with his most 'developed' thoughts. Perhaps the editor felt that it would be best to leave out the section so that it would present the most accurate position that JS held on the issue (which is according to many uncertain).

Remember the manual does not present the teachings in chronological order, but by theme nor does it discuss the development of concepts if it is like the other manuals.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Pot, meet kettle. By ingoring evidence contrary to your polemics, you are committing the self-same sin of which you accuse us.

Oh, come now! Their selective use of the evidence is perfectly fine!

[Teancum]

You are conveniently ignoring the statements that Joseph himself made discounting the hemispheric model.

It is convenient for you to do so, but it is also disingenuous.

Pot, meet kettle. By ingoring evidence contrary to your polemics, you are committing the self-same sin of which you accuse us.

Yet it it is you who is presenting a half-truth for polemical gain. There is a term for this. It uses the same prefix as the word hypostatic. Can you guess the rest?

Hmmmm

First I did not acccuse YOU of anything. I accused the producers of Church manuals. I am LDS as well Selek , an active participating, tithe paying, temple attending Latter-day Saint.

Ok Mr Selek the oh so wise. Why did the Church edit out this entire paragraph. The idea that is it not essential for salvation or to save space will not fly.

Oh and could you provide statements by JS that indicate he did not believe the Indians were descendants of Lehi and comments where he discounts the hemispheric model? Show me just how disingenuous I am. Man words like disingenuous, dishonest, your polemic, etc, sure do fall from your fingers quite often. Can't get past the presonal attacks can you.

[wenglund]

This was posted in another forum and there seems to be little support for the Church's position (Nehor being the exception), so I thought there would be some here who would have some thoughts on the matter in support of the Church's decision to leave this particular part of the language of the Wentworth Letter out. Here is the post from the other forum.

Here is a link to the chapter at LDS.org

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne...contentLocale=0

Is it simply an issue of space? Was it an effort to avoid a needless discussion of DNA arguments and whether they are of any consequence, etc. Both? Neither? Something else?

Whatever the purpose was, if any (I'm not into mind-reading), it appears to work as a test to see how inclined we may be to strain at the gnats and obsessively pick nits. ;-)

I am pleased, though, to see so much attention given to the manuals. Perhaps there is a chance that some good will come of it--if only we were to utilize the manuals as they are intended.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Defender]

Oh and could you provide statements by JS that indicate he did not believe the Indians were descendants of Lehi and comments where he discounts the hemispheric model? Show me just how disingenuous I am. Man words like disingenuous, dishonest, your polemic, etc, sure do fall from your fingers quite often. Can't get past the presonal attacks can you.

I too am interested in Joseph Smith's statements discounting the hemispheric model. I was unaware that he ever did. I thought he frequently spoke of a hemipsheric model. I would be interested if he went away from that theory before he died.

[phaedrus ut]

I too am interested in Joseph Smith's statements discounting the hemispheric model. I was unaware that he ever did. I thought he frequently spoke of a hemipsheric model. I would be interested if he went away from that theory before he died.

Same here. I'm interested in reading the "statements that Joseph himself made discounting the hemispheric model".

Phaedrus

[LifeOnaPlate]

Same here. I'm interested in reading the "statements that Joseph himself made discounting the hemispheric model".

Phaedrus

Then why haven't you?

[phaedrus ut]

Then why haven't you?

If you, or selek, are willing to share examples of Joseph discounting the hemispheric model I'd be happy to read them.

In all my years doing such studies I'm unaware they exist. I've only seen statements and discoveries from Joseph that suggest the opposite.

Phaedrus

[The Dude]

If you, or selek, are willing to share examples of Joseph discounting the hemispheric model I'd be happy to read them.

In all my years doing such studies I'm unaware they exist. I've only seen statements and discoveries from Joseph that suggest the opposite.

Phaedrus

I'm also not aware of quotes that discount a hemispheric belief. In fact, it seems to me that every time JS had a chance to identify some artifact, ruin, or Native People, he referred to them in terms of the Book of Mormon.

[selek]

I'm also not aware of quotes that discount a hemispheric belief. In fact, it seems to me that every time JS had a chance to identify some artifact, ruin, or Native People, he referred to them in terms of the Book of Mormon.

I don't have the book with me, so you'll have to wait until tomorrow for specific quotes, but Terryl Givens covers this at some length in one of his earlier tomes.

I'll post the relevant quotes and citations tomorrow.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm also not aware of quotes that discount a hemispheric belief. In fact, it seems to me that every time JS had a chance to identify some artifact, ruin, or Native People, he referred to them in terms of the Book of Mormon.

Lets look at it his way. When I was younger I was lead to believe that the hemispheric belief is what actually happened. I was in error. I had to read the BoM and look wat what leaders said. Most leaders said nothing about it. Why becuase not much was/is known. It wasnt till my mission and actually reading the BoM in depth many times that I came to the conclusion that the LGT was most lily the way to go. THe BoM and DNA thnig I thought was always lame to begin with. If any thing it only disproves the hemispheric model that most likely is false anyway, since the text its slef doesnt say.

[selek]

First I did not acccuse YOU of anything. I accused the producers of Church manuals. I am LDS as well Selek , an active participating, tithe paying, temple attending Latter-day Saint.

Your litany of on-the-street-corner self congratulations not withstanding, it is you who are ark-steadying and nit-picking. It is you who, rather than asking your questions of those commissioned and charged with producing the materials, instead go to an unrelated message board and demand that we mindread and speculate without basis or foundation on the motives of those so commissioned.

That's not the behavior of someone demanding answers, but of someone looking for something to kvetch about. It is not the behavior of someone with an honest inquiry, but of an apostate in training looking for reasons to leave.

Ok Mr Selek the oh so wise. Why did the Church edit out this entire paragraph. The idea that is it not essential for salvation or to save space will not fly.

In your opinion. Unfortunately, it is only your opinion- nothing more.

Show me just how disingenuous I am.

Some people need help in exposing their sophistries, errors, and presumptions. You are not one of these.

Man words like disingenuous, dishonest, your polemic, etc, sure do fall from your fingers quite often. Can't get past the presonal attacks can you.

Perhaps, but then again, perhaps you simply find the truth to be hard.