The "adieu" Argument

[Doctor Steuss]

Evidently there were a lot of biblical writers that knew French. These are from the KJV (OT only):

Amos 5: 12

For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.

Esth. 9: 3

And all the rulers of the provinces, and the lieutenants, and the deputies, and officers of the king, helped the Jews; because the fear of Mordecai fell upon them.

Neh. 5: 3

Some also there were that said, We have mortgaged our lands, vineyards, and houses, that we might buy corn, because of the dearth.

Ex. 12: 8

And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Prov. 10: 23

It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom

Prov. 7: 16

I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.

Dan. 4: 27

Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

2 Kgs. 22: 14

So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

How in the world did this happen? I mean, we're talking about alleged Hebrew words being translated into French before French existedâ?¦ or some such nonsensical thing.

Thatâ??s the last strawâ?¦ Iâ??m an atheist.

[soren]

A lot of this discussion is good, but it is missing something obvious. The problem is much simpler than all this. The "adieu" argument fails because the BOM claims to be translated from Reformed Egyptian, an unknown language. How can we be certain that Ref. Egyptian has no phrase that is best translated into English as "adieu"? Unless someone can prove that, "adieu" gets the benefit of the doubt.

[gmormon]

A lot more French words exist in the French edition's of the Book of Mormon.

I still like Dales post from another Adieu OP

[Dan Vogel]

One of a crop of hardy annuals is the oft-recycled "Adieu" argument. The gist of it goes something like this:

"The use of the French word 'adieu' in Jacob 7:27 is anachronistic. It is one of those nuances which common sense should tell a person that the BoM is not what it claims to be."

I find it hard to take this argument seriously. How can it be "anachronistic" to use a word, in an English translation, that has been part of the English language for over 600 years? It is not the case, as in some of the "dumb and dumber" versions of this argument, that the word purports to come from reformed Egyptian. It is a translated word and nothing else.

What, exactly, is wrong with it?

Does anyone have the courage to show that anything is wrong with it?

Regards,

Pahoran

It's a silly argument. Not worth the time. Cheers and aufvedersen!

[Pahoran]

It's a silly argument. Not worth the time. Cheers and aufvedersen!

Dan,

whatever anyone might think of your position, I doubt anyone here imagines you would be silly enough to go for this one.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Bernard Gui]

Pahoran:

I'll take a stab at it.

First, as you all seem well aware, this is probably the least persuasive criticism of the BOM. Perhps that's why you bring it up? Easier to shoot down than other, more serious problems perhaps?

In any event, this seems to be the best LDS defense I've seen on this thread:

Of course the problem is not that Jacob would use a French word--and even if that were actually the case I'm sure TBMs would simply chalk it up to God giving Jacob pre-French revelation since use of the word was so "apropos". Rather the problem is in the alleged "translation." Note the apologist's sentence:

Who cares what Joseph Smith was aware or not aware of? We hear JS defenders telling us over and over again that Joseph Smith is not responsible for the BOM, rather God is. This gets back to the issue raised on my thread entitled Response to Glenn: Why Not Believe Joseph Smith, about the grammatical errors in the BOM. The problem is Mormons want to give Joseph enough leeway to blame for all the mistakes that appeared in the first edition of the BOM, but then reign him back in and credit God for all the rest.

So my question, when, the LDS apologist states that "'Adieu' was probably the best equivalent of Jacob's words of which Joseph Smith was aware" with the implication that Joseph chose to use that word, how many other words did Joseph also choose? I suggest he chose all of them and God had nothing to do with it. And, of course, I base that on much more than the mere appearance of "Adieu" in the BOM.

And with that, farewell.

So, why do you think adieu is a problem?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

What more can be said, mak? Heaven knows I've tried.

Having conceded everything to him, I still can't get him to

acknowledge that "adieu" is perfectly correct 19th-Century

American English. Even if Joseph Smith made it all up,

"adieu" cannot possibly be considered a blunder.

Why is it that you guys have to sit there and embellish everything that has been said?

What do you mean by embellish? I have conceded every point to you, for the sake of argument,

yet you will not acknowledge that "adieu" is correct 1800s American English.

I have asked you many times to show that it is not. You cannot, because

you are simply wrong. To continue to insist that it is a blunder is irrational.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

For my next trick, I will show that John spoke Dutch.

Actually, the issue with Jacob is Hebrew, not Greek. It would be better if you could provide

examples from the Old Testament.

Bernard

[solomarineris]

Nothing at all. To even make the argument shows that one does not even know what the word 'translation' means.

Do you know what you are talking about? How many languages you can speak?

I can confortably speak and understand 5 of them and can guarantee you there is no such Reformed Egyptian word equivelent to Adieu, I am sure about this because JS never showed us this words original sounding or how it is written.

Where is this word?

I think I can discern, I can be well qualified to translate, since I can speak so many languages.

[Pahoran]

Do you know what you are talking about? How many languages you can speak?

I can confortably speak and understand 5 of them and can guarantee you there is no such Reformed Egyptian word equivelent to Adieu, I am sure about this because JS never showed us this words original sounding or how it is written.

So the basis of your guarantee is that you don't have any specific information to the contrary?

What remarkable confidence.

BTW, what is a "Reformed Egyptian word?" Before you answer, please do us the courtesy of reading the actual posts in this thread.

Thanks,

Pahoran

[solomarineris]

So the basis of your guarantee is that you don't have any specific information to the contrary?

What remarkable confidence.

Thanks,

Pahoran

Ahh, Phoran...

My confidence is far more remarkable than you might venture....

I do have every information to the contrary...simply because...

I have no information AT ALL!

Why?

Because there's absolutely no substance to this claims......

If it could be ever verifiable....It would be verified before long.

Adieu could be aufviedersehen or goodbye, or sayanora but not something Reformed Egyptian.

It shall remain an imagination, until it is proven othervise.

Respectfully

[Pahoran]

Ahh, Phoran...

My confidence is far more remarkable than you might venture....

I do have every information to the contrary...simply because...

I have no information AT ALL!

Why?

Because there's absolutely no substance to this claims......

If it could be ever verifiable....It would be verified before long.

Adieu could be aufviedersehen or goodbye, or sayanora but not something Reformed Egyptian.

It shall remain an imagination, until it is proven othervise.

Respectfully

So, IOW, you were bearing your "testimony."

Your "testimony" that your knowledge of all subjects is so mightily all-encompassing that if you don't know something, it does not exist to be known.

Got it.

Now, do you have anything substantive at all to contribute to this thread?

Or not?

Regards,

Pahoran

[solomarineris]

So, IOW, you were bearing your "testimony."

Now, do you have anything substantive at all to contribute to this thread?

Or not?

Regards,

Pahoran

Of course not Phoran,

There was nothing substantive about this Adieu word to begin with.

Frankly it is worse than laughing stock of an argument.

You cannot show me nothing of substance in this matter.

The sad thing is, you know it.

I am glad that I am not in your place to defend all this stuff.

peace

[Beowulf]

In the Japanese translation of "adieu", the word used is "saraba", which is a slightly archaic word (similar to "sayonara") that leaves the impression of never meeting again in this world. In other words, a perfect translation.

And I think "adieu" is probably the perfect word for whatever was in the original. (Or, to humor Solomarineris, who thinks that lack of information gives him perfect knowledge -- boy, the Gnostics would have made merry with that! -- the perfect word for the fictional text, since this is exactly the type of salutation that Jacob is making.)

Beowulf

[Pahoran]

Of course not Phoran,

There was nothing substantive about this Adieu word to begin with.

Frankly it is worse than laughing stock of an argument.

Tell that to those "critics" who keep trying to titivate it up and make it look respectable.

You cannot show me nothing of substance in this matter.

I'm sure I could show you nothing of substance if I wanted to, but I prefer to show something of substance.

The topic of this thread is not the totality of your knowledge. It is the merit, or otherwise, of the "adieu" argument; which you seem to agree has failed. That's if I am correctly parsing your unusually opaque prose.

The sad thing is, you know it.

Of course I do. I rather think that's my point.

But I fail to see why it is sad.

I am glad that I am not in your place to defend all this stuff.

Why, when you've just admitted that this one is a slam dunk for me?

peace

Hey, like peace, man.

Why do I get the feeling that your above post is even less coherent than usual?

Like I said: if you think you have something substantive to contribute--as in a connected paragraph or two--then feel free to make another post on this thread.

If you just want to snort, then please snort elsewhere.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Obiwan]

I said I hadn't seen it on this board. I don't know about other message boards and it might be possible that some on this board even use it, but in my experience I've only seen it brought up by apologists as an example of bad anti-BofM arguments, which it is.

You may not have "seen" it, but since WE are well familiar with anti-mormon arguments/claims against the Church, it is in fact a VERY COMMON claim.

Although, we still see the Revelations (can't add) argument by anti's on this board which is almost just as dumb, so maybe we have just been lucky. Haven't looked, but has anyone done a search of the board.

By the way, if you can see the "obvious" idocy of the argument, did you ever consider that while some of the other arguments while not so blatantly stupid, could still in fact be stupid based on higher reasoning and facts, such as understanding the idocy of this argument is based on a certain level of intellectual comprehension skills (2nd grade). Understanding most of the other arguments require middle school or high school comprehension skills which are lacking in anti-mormons.

[soren]

Of course not Phoran,

There was nothing substantive about this Adieu word to begin with.

Frankly it is worse than laughing stock of an argument.

You cannot show me nothing of substance in this matter.

The sad thing is, you know it.

I am glad that I am not in your place to defend all this stuff.

peace

What are you talking about? Pahoran has done a perfectly good job answering this argument. The fact that no Reformed Egyptian can be produced lessens the likelihood of the BOM being a real translation, but likelihood isn't the issue. The only issue is whether the use of "adieu" demonstrates anachronism or translational error. All Pahoran must do to answer this is show at least one plausible reason why it doesn't, and Pahoran has succeeded in that. It is not Pahoran's responsibility to provide positive evidence, only to give a believable account. Only the one who objects to the BOM needs to produce evidence.

[maklelan]

Maklelan,

"lie" is such a strong word. It allows no latitude for either honest mistake or genuine difference of opinion, either of which could account for Paul's misrepresenting of your request.

Besides, this question is off-topic for this thread.

Regards,

Pahoran

It is off topic, but I am quite sure Paul was intentionally misrepresenting me. After all, it is still on his post, despite my inquiries as to why on two different forums. I can hardly believe it was an honest mistake.

[4truth]

Obiwan:

The farce is strong in you:

By the way, if you can see the "obvious" idocy of the argument, did you ever consider that while some of the other arguments while not so blatantly stupid, could still in fact be stupid based on higher reasoning and facts, such as understanding the idocy of this argument is based on a certain level of intellectual comprehension skills (2nd grade). Understanding most of the other arguments require middle school or high school comprehension skills which are lacking in anti-mormons.

Some very instructional rhetoric, there, dude. Do/did you mention this to potential converts while on your mission?

And Soren writes:

Only the one who objects to the BOM needs to produce evidence.

Now that is candid! I couldn't have stated it any better! And the remarkable part is, you don't see any problem with that.

Pahoran:

2. Did Joseph Smith, go through the same thought processes that any translator goes through in searching for the correct words to best communicate the meaning of the original text in another language? In other words, was Joseph Smith actually doing the work of translation?

That's what I understand the scriptures to be telling us, yes. See section 9, verses 8 and 9.

So then all of the words in the BOM came from Joseph Smith?

The point is that anti-Mormons (no scare quotes necessary; you are opposing the Church of Jesus Christ)

*Note: the quotes are necessary to indicate I'm using your terminology. "anti-mormon" is perjorative in that it implies bigotry and prejudice against a group of people and its use reinforces the negative stereotype you have developed for church/Joseph critics. I believe Joseph Smith was a con-man, plain and simple, and I bring up valid reasons why I believe that to be true. I am not prejudice against Latter-day Saints. I am not "anti-Mormon." I am anti-Joseph Smith.

work themselves into a lather over the non-existence of any language called "Reformed Egyptian," but The Book of Mormon does not assert that any such language ever existed anyway; it merely asserts that the Nephites "reformed" some Egyptian characters for the purpose of engraving upon plates

Are the characters that were allegedly copied from the plates and subsequently denounced by Dr. Charles Anthon accurate examples of the reformed Egyptian characters to which you are referring?

[Sargon]

And Soren writes:

Now that is candid! I couldn't have stated it any better! And the remarkable part is, you don't see any problem with that.

Even more impressive is the fact that soren is not LDS, yet is comfortable with admitting obvious realities.

Sargon

[Daimao]

In the Japanese translation of "adieu", the word used is "saraba", which is a slightly archaic word (similar to "sayonara") that leaves the impression of never meeting again in this world. In other words, a perfect translation.

In fact, it's an updated version of the exact same expression (saraba->sarinaraba->sayonaraba->sayonara), much the same way that the archaic "fare thee well" has been updated to just "farewell" somewhere along the way.

And I think "adieu" is probably the perfect word for whatever was in the original.

While on the subject of Japanese parting salutations, in my work, I've translated "abayo" into English as "adios" before. I seem to remember choosing it, not because the speaker was saying goodbye in Spanish, but because the context required something short, yet more colloquial than just "goodbye." And in context, it fit the situation perfectly.

[Sargon]

While on the subject of Japanese parting salutations, in my work, I've translated "abayo" into English as "adios" before. I seem to remember choosing it, not because the speaker was saying goodbye in Spanish, but because the context required something short, yet more colloquial than just "goodbye." And in context, it fit the situation perfectly.

More proof that you are a false prophet Daimao.

Sargon

[solomarineris]

But I fail to see why it is sad.

Why, when you've just admitted that this one is a slam dunk for me?

Hey, like peace, man.

Regards,

Pahoran

Phoran,

I am glad that you are so sure about this Adieu word.

On the other hand theres more than %99 of chance that it resembles

a totally (out of place) imaginative word for a book.

If you don't see the futility of trying to prove it. I do respect your decision.

After all we life on a terra firma which has fostered freedom of choice more than any place

on this Earth. You are investing your time & energy that I could bet all my wealth on the spot

that is Fiction.

[gmormon]

In fact, it's an updated version of the exact same expression (saraba->sarinaraba->sayonaraba->sayonara), much the same way that the archaic "fare thee well" has been updated to just "farewell" somewhere along the way.

While on the subject of Japanese parting salutations, in my work, I've translated "abayo" into English as "adios" before. I seem to remember choosing it, not because the speaker was saying goodbye in Spanish, but because the context required something short, yet more colloquial than just "goodbye." And in context, it fit the situation perfectly.

I think we need to get rid of all the non-English words from English!!! Wouldn't that make for a very brief dicussion board ?

[LoudmouthMormon]

I think we need to get rid of all the non-English words from English!!! Wouldn't that make for a very brief dicussion board?

I wish you good luck.

p.s. "Good" is Indo-European, and "Luck" is from the Middle Dutch.

LM