Paul Never Says Believers Have Been Saved . . .

[Zakuska]

Rhino,

Paul and the biblical saints failed your test Rhino.

Heb. 11: 35

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Philip. 3: 11

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Why Is Paul trying to attain something that you say he already has?

For some reason he and the Bibilical Saints don't seem as Certain as you are.

[BCSpace]

To whom does the glory go in the former, and to whom in the latter? The first points to me, since I did it. The second points to God, Who did it, and continues to work it out in my life.

A fundamental misunderstanding of Christian salvation that is. Since grace is what God has done for us that we cannot do for ourselves, we do not boast of the works he requires us to do.

[Zakuska]

A better Question is what are the steps that lead to Perfection... (Celestial Glory) our ultimate Goal and commandment. ("Be ye therefore perfect")

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will WE DO, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hmmm...

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now where have I seen that before?

[BCSpace]

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hmmm...

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now where have I seen that before?

Thus onto eternal perfection

The honest and faithful will go

While they who reject this glad message

Shall never such happiness know

[Zakuska]

The whole ladder back to God is laid out right there...!

Faith

Repentance

Baptism

Gift of the Holy Ghost

Enduring to the End (AKA ressurection/Perfection/Adoption)

Judgment to one of the 3 Kingdoms.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A better Question is what are the steps that lead to Perfection... (Celestial Glory) our ultimate Goal and commandment. ("Be ye therefore perfect")

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will WE DO, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hmmm...

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now where have I seen that before?

Hmmm very very Interesting here, so much for the idea of predestination. In Lynchburg VA they used a term I've never heard of "Eternal Security". So much for that idea too.

[consiglieri]

I appreciate everybody's posts on this thread.

My intent at the outset was to try to focus our comments on 1 Corinthians, and especially 1:18.

Otherwise, this thread tends to be a rehash of arguments about salvation by grace versus salvation by works.

Do we have any kind of consensus on this board that the correct interpretation of 1:18 is that Paul speaks of himself, as well as Corinthians believers, as "being saved"?

I also find it interesting that Paul does appear to be addressing throughout much of 1 Corinthians a group of Christians who have taken his "liberty in Christ" as a license to do whatever they wish, including paying social calls on the temple prostitutes up at the temple of Aphrodite about 1/4 mile to the south of the city.

Paul seems to be saying over and over again that interpreting his teachings in such an extreme manner is not what he meant.

In this way, it seems that much of what Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians is apropos to many evangelical Christians today, who are making the same misinterpretation of Paul's words as some of the saints in Corinth 2,000 years ago.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I appreciate everybody's posts on this thread.

My intent at the outset was to try to focus our comments on 1 Corinthians, and especially 1:18.

Otherwise, this thread tends to be a rehash of arguments about salvation by grace versus salvation by works.

Do we have any kind of consensus on this board that the correct interpretation of 1:18 is that Paul speaks of himself, as well as Corinthians believers, as "being saved"?

I also find it interesting that Paul does appear to be addressing throughout much of 1 Corinthians a group of Christians who have taken his "liberty in Christ" as a license to do whatever they wish, including paying social calls on the temple prostitutes up at the temple of Aphrodite about 1/4 mile to the south of the city.

Paul seems to be saying over and over again that interpreting his teachings in such an extreme manner is not what he meant.

In this way, it seems that much of what Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians is apropos to many evangelical Christians today, who are making the same misinterpretation of Paul's words as some of the saints in Corinth 2,000 years ago.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I concour with the above statement. Anyone else?

[Zakuska]

Amen

[paulhadik]

i'll concur with the statement that y'all weren't listening to a thing we said.....

[BCSpace]

Do we have any kind of consensus on this board that the correct interpretation of 1:18 is that Paul speaks of himself, as well as Corinthians believers, as "being saved"?

For that verse and several others, lexiconally, there an element present possession in "sōzō" in that we are "delivered from error and corrupt notions, in moral purity, in pardon of sin, and in the blessed peace of a soul reconciled to God".

However, there is also a huge sense of a conditional future blessing, a pregant construction, that one is not necessarily immune from harsh judgement in the last day.

So as long as EV's understand that the sense of salvation of which they speak is not the end result nor a guarentee of the end result and that there is no such thing as OSAS or eternal security, then they are doing well in that regard because that is the Biblical definition.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

First off, if Joe keeps jumping into the river its because Joe is an idiot...

as for OSAS, the heresy lies in the Easy Believeism that is being taught in so many shallow churches.

Salvation is God's changing us and freeing us from sin.

Too many churches are teaching that salvation is the magic genie prayer of "dear jesus please come into my heart". Now they think they are saved, but there is no change in their life but they are constantly told not to worry that they have been saved and saved for all time.

salvation is of God from beginning to end. He saves us, keeps us, sanctifies us and glorifies us.

magic genie praying is of men and must be addressed and rebuked by the modern EV church

Paul were you talking about this part when you said nobody was listening?

Its possible that many of us here me included, that once we start to hear that God does it all and we are saved that we might just think that you are talking about easy believism. Most people that I talked to in VA and WVA seemed to believe in some sort of doctrine that was close to this "easy believeism".

My apologies if we didnt get itthe first time/

[Anijen]

1 Cor 1:18 reads;

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

and Romans 1:16 says;

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

The gosple is power As Brother R L Anderson says

" If the form is without power, the preaching is without salvation."

Understanding Paul pg 368

[consiglieri]

i'll concur with the statement that y'all weren't listening to a thing we said.....

Is it better for us to listen to you or to God (or to Paul for that matter)?

[Zakuska]

Why does that remind me of a verse?

Acts 5:29

[paulhadik]

then why even ask the question?

Mola:

Easy Beleivism is the practice in many churches that salvation is getting someone to ask Jesus into their hearts. So a person comes forward, repeats this prayer and is told he is "saved".

That person goes out and sees no fruit or change but is repeatedly told, not to worry because once saved always saved.

This is not salvation.

Ephesians tells us that God quickens us from the dead. This is a spiritual act on His part that is possible due to Christ's death. At this point I stand justified before Him (although I haven't died yet) so I can say with confidence I am saved. However, as the Spirit works in my life I become more Christ-like (going from milk to meat as y'all say) and grow spiritually. I still sin, but am not a slave to sin nor do I enjoy sinning.

At death I enter His presence free from the guilt of sin, receive a new body that is free FROM sin and spend eternity with Him

This whole process, is His working through me, based on His promise. If I have been adopted by Him I myself can't destroy that adoption, He remains my Father for eternity.

So if people want to disagree ok, but some here could take a moment to understand what we are saying

Once redeemed and adopted by God it is eternal.

[Zakuska]

then why even ask the question?

Mola:

Easy Beleivism is the practice in many churches that salvation is getting someone to ask Jesus into their hearts. So a person comes forward, repeats this prayer and is told he is "saved".

That person goes out and sees no fruit or change but is repeatedly told, not to worry because once saved always saved.

This is not salvation.

Ephesians tells us that God quickens us from the dead. This is a spiritual act on His part that is possible due to Christ's death. At this point I stand justified before Him (although I haven't died yet) so I can say with confidence I am saved. However, as the Spirit works in my life I become more Christ-like (going from milk to meat as y'all say) and grow spiritually. I still sin, but am not a slave to sin nor do I enjoy sinning.

At death I enter His presence free from the guilt of sin, receive a new body that is free FROM sin and spend eternity with Him

This whole process, is His working through me, based on His promise. If I have been adopted by Him I myself can't destroy that adoption, He remains my Father for eternity.

So if people want to disagree ok, but some here could take a moment to understand what we are saying

Once redeemed and adopted by God it is eternal.

All well and good... however... you missed one very important detail.

Rom. 8: 23

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Adoption does not occur until the ressurection at the last day and final judgment.

Thus Peter can say...

2 Peter 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What is this Steadfastness he is speaking of... and this... being found "without spot" and "blameless"?

James gives a clue...

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Then he goes into Chapter two which is all about works based Salvation for Beleivers.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

then why even ask the question?

Mola:

Easy Beleivism is the practice in many churches that salvation is getting someone to ask Jesus into their hearts. So a person comes forward, repeats this prayer and is told he is "saved".

That person goes out and sees no fruit or change but is repeatedly told, not to worry because once saved always saved.

This is not salvation.

Ephesians tells us that God quickens us from the dead. This is a spiritual act on His part that is possible due to Christ's death. At this point I stand justified before Him (although I haven't died yet) so I can say with confidence I am saved. However, as the Spirit works in my life I become more Christ-like (going from milk to meat as y'all say) and grow spiritually. I still sin, but am not a slave to sin nor do I enjoy sinning.

At death I enter His presence free from the guilt of sin, receive a new body that is free FROM sin and spend eternity with Him

This whole process, is His working through me, based on His promise. If I have been adopted by Him I myself can't destroy that adoption, He remains my Father for eternity.

So if people want to disagree ok, but some here could take a moment to understand what we are saying

Once redeemed and adopted by God it is eternal.

Ok on your own words then Once redeemed and adopted by God it is eternal. Can one fall from this by their own actions?

Also I asked the question becuase is this not a message board were discussion is supposed to take place?

One more note I agree that once redeemed and adopted by God it is eternal. When does that happen, is the big question. Is it a single act? Or is it a process?

[Paul D]

Paul may have not espoused it, but G-d did.

Zing!

Ummm...no, God did not. Otherwise, Jesus died in vain (Gal. 2:21).

Zing!

[Paul D]

Huh?

Not according to his speech to King Agrippa.

Acts 26

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

or was he just trying to save his skin?

Excuse me, but confusing terminology does not make your case. Notice, what Paul said first, that you failed to highlight. Repent and turn to God. Repentance means to have a change of mind, a change of heart, or to "turn" around. That only occurs when a person has been regenerated by God. Then Paul says to do the works that are consistent with that "turn."

If you confuse what's going on by getting the process backwards, then it is no wonder that you're subscribing to a works-based salvation.

I guess then Paul is against James and John And Christ. Oh well what to do?

Nope. Paul and James are talking about the same thing from two different angles. Paul is talking about justification before God, which is salvation. James is talking about justification before men, which is evidence to them that a person is saved.

[Paul D]

The soteriology of Paul and Christ must be one and the same else one of them is not a Christian. Christ explicitly says that good works are required for salvation in Matthew 25:32-46 and the NT proclaims the necessity of other things for salvation as well.

He says no such thing, otherwise Jesus would have advocated that one simply try harder to keep the Jewish Law unto salvation, and to forget about trusting in him.

[Doctor Steuss]

Ummm...no, God did not. Otherwise, Jesus died in vain (Gal. 2:21).

Zing!

Ummm... yes, G-d did. Otherwise, Jesus would not have been a light to the world (John 8:12). Unless of course "following" Him doesn't mean that we obey G-d the same way He did.

Zing!

-----------

This whole works vs. faith junk is just silly, IMO. They cannot be separated as they are essentially one-in-the-same. Works without faith doesn't necessarily get you where you need to be, and faith without works isn't even faith (pistis).

To have faith (pistis) is to have the fidelity and loyalty to follow Christ by performing the very acts that G-d wishes (or commands [?]) of us.

All this â??Faith is more important than worksâ?¦ Works is more important than faithâ? junk ever does is take away from the real culprit of our salvationâ?¦ G-dâ??s grace.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Nope. Paul and James are talking about the same thing from two different angles. Paul is talking about justification before God, which is salvation. James is talking about justification before men, which is evidence to them that a person is saved.

I guess I should be more clear here. Christ, John and Paul all go against what you teach.

[Zakuska]

Excuse me, but confusing terminology does not make your case. Notice, what Paul said first, that you failed to highlight. Repent and turn to God. Repentance means to have a change of mind, a change of heart, or to "turn" around. That only occurs when a person has been regenerated by God. Then Paul says to do the works that are consistent with that "turn."

Sounds to me more like he's outlining the Foundation of what establishes us IN Christ...

Faith

Repentance

Baptism

Gift of the Holy Ghost

Those are the "Principles of the Doctrine of Christ" are they not?

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Then enduring to the end baring fruit and keeping ones self unspotted from the world. Waiting for the Adoption and the redemsion of our bodies.

[Paul D]

A fundamental misunderstanding of Christian salvation that is. Since grace is what God has done for us that we cannot do for ourselves, we do not boast of the works he requires us to do.

No, you boast that you can contribute something to your salvation by keeping this and that prerequisite, much of which has absolutely nothing to do with God's revelation. For example, being married to the right person, in the right place, by the right religious authority.