Paul Never Says Believers Have Been Saved . . .

[cksalmon]

Hows this?

2 Nephi 10

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

22 For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also.

23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselvesâ??to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

25 Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I was wondering about. Do you know of other official sources that teach such things?

Best.

CKS

[Zakuska]

Perhaps this might help-

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/a/75

This is the part I was referring to about the temple...

Moses 3

15 And I, the Lord God, took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden, to dress it, and to keep it.

16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make an help meet for him.

[consiglieri]

Although I started out with the passage from 1 Corinthians 1:18 which actually says believers are not saved, but "being saved," I will add to the kitty 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, where we have precisely the same situation.

Here is the KJV:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

The NRSV, however, likewise changes this to, "Through which also you are being saved."

More grist for the mill.

Also note the condition to this "being saved" is stated by Paul as "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you." So even the status of "being saved" is conditioned upon further action by the believer.

Now, why is it again I am supposed to believe something regarding salvation that Paul contradicted?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Although I started out with the passage from 1 Corinthians 1:18 which actually says believers are not saved, but "being saved," I will add to the kitty 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, where we have precisely the same situation.

Here is the KJV:

The NRSV, however, likewise changes this to, "Through which also you are being saved."

More grist for the mill.

Also note the condition to this "being saved" is stated by Paul as "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you." So even the status of "being saved" is conditioned upon further action by the believer.

Now, why is it again I am supposed to believe something regarding salvation that Paul contradicted?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

This seems to be a case that saved is a relative term. Can one truly be saved, meaning eternal security, before this life is over? I dont think so. One can always make a choice in the matter before death. And even then there would be some specultaion that you could do things in the after life, imo, till judgment. I ask this again, is salvation a one time deal or a process?

[cksalmon]

Although I started out with the passage from 1 Corinthians 1:18 which actually says believers are not saved, but "being saved," I will add to the kitty 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, where we have precisely the same situation.

Here is the KJV:

The NRSV, however, likewise changes this to, "Through which also you are being saved."

More grist for the mill.

Also note the condition to this "being saved" is stated by Paul as "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you." So even the status of "being saved" is conditioned upon further action by the believer.

Now, why is it again I am supposed to believe something regarding salvation that Paul contradicted?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hey Consig--

Just for reference. Follows the Greek and my wooden English translation.

Γνωρίζω δὲ ὑμῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ὃ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν, ὃ καὶ παρελάβετε, ἐν ᾧ καὶ ἑστήκατε,

δι᾿ οὗ καὶ σώζεσθε, τίνι λόγῳ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν εἰ κατέχετε, ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκῇ ἐπιστεύσατε.

Now, I make known to you, brothers, the good news [or, gospel] that I brought to you, which you received, in which also you stand [Present Active Indicative], through which also you are [presently] saved [Present Passive Indicative*], if~with regard to the word I brought to you you hold [it] fast, unless you now believe in vain.

* the Present Passive Inidicative ("you are [presently] saved") here is not, grammatically, the same situation one finds in 1 Corinthians 1:18 (where sozo appears as a Present Active Participle="you are being saved"). I don't question the NRSV's choice of phrase here; I just wanted to point out that we're dealing with a different grammatical structure.

Some questions arise here:

(1) What was the good news Paul preached?

(2) What was the word Paul brought to them? (I'm assuming [1] and [2] are roughly synonymous.)

(3) How can the believers addressed have possibly come to a situation such that they can presently be said to (at least theoretically) "[now] believe in vain?"

I don't have definitive answers (though I have some ideas). And I'm afraid I might be unintentionally obfuscating the issue, but I find the discussion interesting, and wanted to zero in on the verse you've highlighted.

Best.

CKS

Best

[T-Shirt]

Now, I make known to you, brothers, the good news [or, gospel] that I brought to you, which you received, in which also you stand [Present Active Indicative], through which also you are [presently] saved [Present Passive Indicative*], if~with regard to the word I brought to you you hold [it] fast, unless you now believe in vain.

Here is my translation:

Brethren, I remind you of the gospel which i previously taught you, which you accepted and in which you continue.

It is by this gospel that you are saved, if you hold fast to what I taught you. Otherwise, your belief is of no value.

T-Shirt

[consiglieri]

Some questions arise here:

(1) What was the good news Paul preached?

(2) What was the word Paul brought to them? (I'm assuming [1] and [2] are roughly synonymous.)

(3) How can the believers addressed have possibly come to a situation such that they can presently be said to (at least theoretically) "[now] believe in vain?"

Fair enough.

I think that, in the context of 1 Corinthians, Paul is here focusing on the death of Jesus, but more importantly for his message, the resurrection of Jesus, which the balance of chapter 15 indicates some (many?) saints in Corinth had stopped believing.

I think the "good news" and the "word" in your questions (1) and (2) are roughly, if not identically, synonymous, with verses one and two, as you suggest.

Once again going with the context, I think that Paul is here saying that their belief is vain, and they are hence no longer saved (or in the process of being saved) if they have stopped believing in the resurrection of Jesus.

It is usually my attempt to give the most narrow explanation of a particular passage, trying to locate it in the context of what is being addressed. At least, that is what I have attempted here, without trying to infuse any preconceptions into the text.

What do you think? How did I do?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[cksalmon]

Here is my translation:

Otherwise, your belief is of no value.

This doesn't fit the Greek:

ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκῇ ἐπιστεύσατε /

........ except~without just cause you have believed.

(1) You suggest that unless those addressed hold fast to Paul's teaching, their belief is in vain.

(2) But, the Greek suggests that unless they hold fast to Paul's teaching, they inherently affirm that they believed without just cause.

The difference is subtle, but it is certainly there.

(1) Here, they believe in vain, based on their personal actions (=not holding fast to what Paul preached).

(2) Here, they contradict their prior belief by negating the justification for that prior belief. Thus, their current (theoretical) belief nullifies (to Paul's mind) the former justified belief, which they now have (theoretically) disaffirmed.

The two are not the same.

Are you translating from the Greek? It seems like you're paraphrasing.

Best.

CKS

[consiglieri]

This doesn't fit the Greek:

ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκῇ ἐπιστεύσατε /

........ except~without just cause you have believed.

(1) You suggest that unless those addressed hold fast to Paul's teaching, their belief is in vain.

(2) But, the Greek suggests that unless they hold fast to Paul's teaching, they inherently affirm that they believed without just cause.

The difference is subtle, but it is certainly there.

(1) Here, they believe in vain, based on their personal actions (=not holding fast to what Paul preached).

(2) Here, they contradict their prior belief by negating the justification for that prior belief. Thus, their current (theoretical) belief nullifies (to Paul's mind) the former justified belief, which they now have (theoretically) disaffirmed.

The two are not the same.

Are you translating from the Greek? It seems like you're paraphrasing.

Best.

CKS

Though I do not know Greek, from the context of 1 Corinthians, it appears to me more like Paul is saying the number 2 I bold-faced above.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[cksalmon]

Though I do not know Greek, from the context of 1 Corinthians, it appears to me more like Paul is saying the number 2 I bold-faced above.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yeah, I do too, obviously. My very loose, expansionist paraphrase would run something like:

"Um...Oh, wait. Unless, perhaps you believed something you now think you had no business believing in the first place."

I don't know what implications it has for the thread, but there it is.

Best to you, Consig.

CKS

[William the Conqueror]

â??Our version does not express intelligibly the sense of ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκὢ ἐπιστεύσατε by rendering it so literally â?? unless ye have believed in vain. To believe in vain, according to the use of ancient languages, is to believe without just reason and authority, giving credit to idle reports as true and authentic. Thus Plutarch, speaking of some story which passed current, says, τοῦτο ἡμεῖς ἐ᾿ἴπομεν ἐν τί τῶν εἰκὢ πεπιστεύμενων â?? â??this I said was one of those tales which are believed without any good authority.â? (Sympos. lib. 1, quaest. 6.) The Latins used credere frustra â?? to believe in vain, or temere â?? (rashly.) Kypke takes notice that ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ, for except or unless, which has long been a suspected phrase, is used more than ten times by Lucian. It is also used by Plutarch in the Life of Demosthenes, volume 4.â? â?? Alexanderâ??s Paraphrase on 1 Corinthians 15. (London, 1766,) â?? Ed.

John Gill compares those in Corinth who 'believed in vain' with the rocky soil in the parable of the sower.

Calvin says that the Sadducees had some sway in Corinthian belief. The sum is that those 'who believed in vain' never were truly saved but only professors of Christ. This is pretty much how I view the LDS -as only professors in Christ, or like the rocky soil. The word never takes root because like Sadducean belief it is amalgamated and bastardized by false, demonic doctrine, thus preventing true salvation.

"..for many are called but few are chosen..."

"...always learning (progressing) but never coming to a knowledge of God.."

"...just like Jammes and Jambres who opposed Moses...."

Remember Jammes and Jambres counterfeited everything that Moses did. When his staff (wood) became a reptile (snake), their petrified or hypnotized snakes became alive and moved. However his snake gobbled up theirs.

So like the parable of the wheat and tares, God is allowing the LDS (tares) to grow alongside the wheat in the present church age. Remember how that parable ends!

"Mark my words all you people." (Micah in Ahab's court)

[Aquilifer]

The sum is that those 'who believed in vain' never were truly saved but only professors of Christ. This is pretty much how I view the LDS -as only professors in Christ, or like the rocky soil. The word never takes root because like Sadducean belief it is amalgamated and bastardized by false, demonic doctrine, thus preventing true salvation.

Gee, tell us how you really feel!