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Creedal Christianity


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I was briefly glancing at the thread about the blogalogue between Mohler and Card regarding the questionof whether or not Mormons are Christians. The assertion seems to be that unless you accept the Christian creeds (Nicene, Apostles, etc)., then you cannot qualify as a true "Christian."

Now, assuming my summation of that argument is correct, that brings up an interesting dilemma: If acceptance of the creeds is a prerequisite, then there were no "true Christians" prior to the first ecumenical counsels of the mid-300's.

What, then, was the qualifying criteria for pre-nicene Christianity for admission to the club?

Secondly, what creeds am I required to believe? Nicene? Anathanasian? Apostles? And who dictates which one I must accept?

Just curious.

C.I.

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I was briefly glancing at the thread about the blogalogue between Mohler and Card regarding the questionof whether or not Mormons are Christians. The assertion seems to be that unless you accept the Christian creeds (Nicene, Apostles, etc)., then you cannot qualify as a true "Christian."

Now, assuming my summation of that argument is correct, that brings up an interesting dilemma: If acceptance of the creeds is a prerequisite, then there were no "true Christians" prior to the first ecumenical counsels of the mid-300's.

What, then, was the qualifying criteria for pre-nicene Christianity for admission to the club?

Secondly, what creeds am I required to believe? Nicene? Anathanasian? Apostles? And who dictates which one I must accept?

Just curious.

C.I.

I disagree that you must agree with a creed, but I do believe that many creeds hold truths that are necessary for the Christian faith. You would need those beliefs whether it was stated in a creed or not. I am Southern Baptist and beleive everything in the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, but if we found fault in it, we can revise it in light of scripture.

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I disagree that you must agree with a creed, but I do believe that many creeds hold truths that are necessary for the Christian faith. You would need those beliefs whether it was stated in a creed or not. I am Southern Baptist and beleive everything in the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, but if we found fault in it, we can revise it in light of scripture.

I actually used the Nicene creed in my Sunday School class today and I actually find very little wrong with it except the notion of the "one substance" which is clearly extra-biblical.

ci

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I actually used the Nicene creed in my Sunday School class today and I actually find very little wrong with it except the notion of the "one substance" which is clearly extra-biblical.

ci

Of what faith are you?

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Umm, Christian means Christ like.

Creeds and organized religion don't really control whether one is Christ like or not.

Yeah, I think we should seperate the term Christian - with all its many definitions and connotations and speak of those who have salvation.

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Yeah, I think we should seperate the term Christian - with all its many definitions and connotations and speak of those who have salvation.

That's easy, Jesus died for all, all are salvaged, few are chosen.

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I disagree that you must agree with a creed, but I do believe that many creeds hold truths that are necessary for the Christian faith. You would need those beliefs whether it was stated in a creed or not. I am Southern Baptist and beleive everything in the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, but if we found fault in it, we can revise it in light of scripture.

huh?

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One of the bulletin board items in the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit here in my hometwon says that Christian actually means "Little Christs." I thought that was quite provocative!

They found some Dead Sea scrolls in Shelley?

Wonders will never cease...

I think that "Christian" was first used as a term of derision -- rather like we were called

"Mormonites" by the unsympathetic newspaper editors of the early 1830s.

Then The Paulites at Antioch adopted the term -- (much like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir

took over the old slander against the Latter Day Saints) and made it holy stuff.

I doubt Jesus ever called himself a "Christian," nor Peter, James, John, Stephen, et al.

And I don't count myself as being any better than them. "Follower of Jesus" is good enough for me.

Uncle "then again, Stephen really wasn't around all that long, to take up the new name, was he?" Dale

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Unka Dale:

I doubt Jesus ever called himself a "Christian," nor Peter, James, John, Stephen, et al.

And I don't count myself as being any better than them. "Follower of Jesus" is good enough for me.

Considering they were all born in the wool Jews, I agree with you entirely. In fact Bart Ehrman in his book Lost Christianities, notes this quite powerfully. They all were full law abiding Jews, (Ehrman even notes that Jesus was circumcized - eh? What's that? The subject of God with a penis again?!) and then came Paul.......... uh-oh, I probably shouldn't go there..... :P

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Secondly, what creeds am I required to believe? Nicene? Anathanasian? Apostles? And who dictates which one I must accept?

The goal post seems to move whenever we get too close to it so I doubt it matters what we would accept.

:P I rather like calling ourselves "followers of Christ" while letting those who damn the guys who aren't just like them to hell keep the "Christian".

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...then came Paul.......... uh-oh, I probably shouldn't go there..... :P

I found that I can make my bible lighter and faster to read, by tearing

out the pages between Romans and Hebrews.... oops, I'm in trouble too now.

Uncle "Paul was just Joseph Smith Light -- same stuff, just less filling" Dale

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One of the bulletin board items in the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit here in my hometwon says that Christian actually means "Little Christs." I thought that was quite provocative!

Jesus the Christ.

Christ= Annointed "Christos". With what you ask?

LIGHT

THe LIght of Christ is given to abide in everyman that comes into the world. What we do with it is what makes one a Christian or not.

Christian- Annointed with light. ie. Christlike.

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I disagree that you must agree with a creed, but I do believe that many creeds hold truths that are necessary for the Christian faith. You would need those beliefs whether it was stated in a creed or not. I am Southern Baptist and beleive everything in the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, but if we found fault in it, we can revise it in light of scripture.

I thought revelation 22 said we arent supposed to add to or take away from the bible with extra books, etc.

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I thought revelation 22 said we arent supposed to add to or take away from the bible with extra books, etc.

Do not take away from this book or record was only sealed to the book of Revelation

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Not to be rude, but how does this related to my OP. I can't see how this adds to the discussion I'm trying to have.

Ci

Life on a plate was asserting that anything added to or taken away from the Bible was not to be done. I was pointing out that it was only refering to the book of Revelation.

Is this a Creedal Difference. You decide.

Would you like me not to post on your thread?

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So, may I assumed from this thread so far that the LDS rejection of the Nicene Creed

is not a valid basis for denying us the title of "christian?"

The last time I checked, the Disciples of Christ did not make use of any of the apostolic

creeds, as a test of faith -- and yet they are accepted as "Christians" by the mainstream churches.

Community of Christ is on the verge of obtaining such acceptance -- and will sooner or later

join the World Council of Churches, etc. Is THAT what Mormons wish to do themselves????

So long as the CofJCofLDS insists on being seen as the only true church upon the face of the earth,

there will be a problem in relating to the mainstream Christian churches, (and in any attempt to

win their approbation for the precept of "Christian Mormons").

That is not the sum total of why Mormons are rejected in this particular instance, but it is part

of a larger split which cannot easily be papered over. Were the LDS to adopt some form of one

of the apostolic creeds, such a change might serve to reconcile them with some Christians;

but I seriously doubt such a turn of events is forthcoming.

Why the Mormons seek the approval of churches they declaim as being "apostate" is quite

beyond my comprehension. It would be rather like Senator Joe Lieberman claiming to be the

only true Republican on the face of the earth, and then seeking admission to the "false" Republicans,

or some such similiarly absurd situation.

Show me in the scriptures where Jesus ever commanded his followers to be called "Christian."

Uncle Dale

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The last time I checked, the Disciples of Christ did not make use of any of the apostolic

creeds, as a test of faith -- and yet they are accepted as "Christians" by the mainstream churches.

Community of Christ is on the verge of obtaining such acceptance -- and will sooner or later

join the World Council of Churches, etc. Is THAT what Mormons wish to do themselves????

So long as the CofJCofLDS insists on being seen as the only true church upon the face of the earth,

there will be a problem in relating to the mainstream Christian churches, (and in any attempt to

win their approbation for the precept of "Christian Mormons").

That is not the sum total of why Mormons are rejected in this particular instance, but it is part

of a larger split which cannot easily be papered over. Were the LDS to adopt some form of one

of the apostolic creeds, such a change might serve to reconcile them with some Christians;

but I seriously doubt such a turn of events is forthcoming.

Why the Mormons seek the approval of churches they declaim as being "apostate" is quite

beyond my comprehension. It would be rather like Senator Joe Lieberman claiming to be the

only true Republican on the face of the earth, and then seeking admission to the "false" Republicans,

or some such similiarly absurd situation.

Show me in the scriptures where Jesus ever commanded his followers to be called "Christian."

Uncle Dale

I think the concern is that people will hear "Mormons are not Christian" and associate it to mean Mormons do not believe in Jesus Christ, which is a false premise. We don't want the well poisoned.

In a talk by Brigham Young once he addressed this issue with an imaginary religionist named "Brother B.":

Come, my good brother Methodist, and my good brother Baptist, you are free and open in your views and feelings, for you hold forth a free salvation. This is a favorite doctrine of the Methodists. They say salvation is handed out to all the human family, without money and without price, and invite them to come and partake of the waters of life freely. I declare the same. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, in God the Father, and in the doctrines of salvation as they are taught in the Old and New Testaments, though not so pointedly in the Old as in the New. Yet the same principles of life and salvation are set forth in both of these books, and I believe them. Come, my brother B, do you believe them? You reply, "Yes, and have for these thirty years, twenty-seven of which I have been a preacher of the Gospel. I believe in the Son of God, and in the Old and New Testaments." Well, then, what in the world do you want to quarrel with me for? "Because you are not a believer, you have thrown away the Bible." You are mistaken, Mr. B.; for instead of that, I have learned wisdom, got light, knowledge, and understanding, so that I know how to believe the Bible. I ask you, brother B., how I must believe the Bible, and how shall you and every other follower of the Lord Jesus Christ believe it? "Brother Mormon, how do you believe it?" I believe it just as it is. I do not believe in putting any man's interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord Himself in some way. I do not believe we need interpreters and expounders of the Scriptures, to wrest them from their literal, plain, simple meaning...You remember the points upon which we disagree with our brother Christians;our disagreement is mutual; they disagree as much with us as we with them.The Bible leads us to disagree with all the Christian nations, and thenwith all the world. It has drawn the line of demarcation between those who serve God and those who serve Him not.

He goes on to talk about how the creeds and beliefs promulgated by most of Christendom are additions apart from the bible, and are false.

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I think the concern is that people will hear "Mormons are not Christian" and

associate it to mean Mormons do not believe in Jesus Christ, which is a

false premise. We don't want the well poisoned.

Consider the position of James the brother of Jesus, when he led the Jerusalem Church --

There, in the most "Jewish" spot on earth, he and his little flock were no doubt accused

of not being "Jewish" and therefore not believing in the "Lion of Judah" -- the forthcoming

Davidic messiah (as still expected by the Jews of his day).

Did James and those early Jesus followers believe any less in the God of Israel, or the

biblical faith, or the messiahship -- simply because their neighbors did not acknowledge

them as true Jews?

Perhaps this is an issue worth the time of the Living Prophet, in going before God on bended

knees and seking divine counsel.

I may be wrong, but I expect Heavenly Father would answer ""Blessed are those who

are persecuted for Jesus' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

UD

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Consider the position of James the brother of Jesus, when he led the Jerusalem Church --

There, in the most "Jewish" spot on earth, he and his little flock were no doubt accused

of not being "Jewish" and therefore not believing in the "Lion of Judah" -- the forthcoming

Davidic messiah (as still expected by the Jews of his day).

Did James and those early Jesus followers believe any less in the God of Israel, or the

biblical faith, or the messiahship -- simply because their neighbors did not acknowledge

them as true Jews?

Perhaps this is an issue worth the time of the Living Prophet, in going before God on bended

knees and seking divine counsel.

I may be wrong, but I expect Heavenly Father would answer ""Blessed are those who

are persecuted for Jesus' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

UD

You got the "harmless as doves" part down pat, but let's add to it the being "wise like serpents" when it concerns matters of the immortal soul of man.

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