Millions Shall Know

[USU78]

Did the hymn, put to music to the tune that was the predecessor to Scotland the Brave, accurately predict JSJr's influence?

USU "Yer darned tootin'" 78

[consiglieri]

Praise to the Man, my friend. Praise to the Man!

[LifeOnaPlate]

I just finished Rough Stone Rolling this last week, and it just happened to coincide with the anniversary of the martyrdom of the prophet. I suppose this is a good opportunity to say I know Joseph Smith is a prophet commissioned by Jesus Christ, and I'm grateful for the work he did.

[Scott Lloyd]

Did the hymn, put to music to the tune that was the predecessor to Scotland the Brave, accurately predict JSJr's influence?

USU "Yer darned tootin'" 78

This might be an appropriate place to point out the prophecy of the angel Moroni who, when visiting the young Joseph Smith, said,

... that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

(Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith -- History 1:33)

Nowhere has that prophecy had a clearer fulfillment than in Internet message boards such as this one.

[YH8]

This might be an appropriate place to point out the prophecy of the angel Moroni who, when visiting the young Joseph Smith, said,

Nowhere has that prophecy had a clearer fulfillment than in Internet message boards such as this one.

Bzzt-No-way-Uh-uh-Never-No-way-no-how-Who-do-you-think-you're-kidding-Come-on-LOL-This-couldn't-be-further-from-the-truth-How-can-you-possibly-say-this-Just-coinicidence-Not-statistically-significant-You've-misread-everything-that-you-think-might-apply-here-People-are-just-expressing-their-opinion-based-on-their-own-ecperiences;-nothing-good-or-bad-being-said-just-perspective-You-and-your-ilk-probably-think-those-who-leave-can't-leave-it-alone-either-People-like-you-are-just-naive-religionists-seeing-persecution-in-everything,-especially-since-you-are-Mormons-You-realize,-don't you,-that-essentially-nobody-has-even-heard-of-Mormonism,-much-less-have-an-opinion-about-it-Come-on,-I-mean-really-Mormonism-is-just-a-little-quirky-backwater-cult-that-isn't-even-a-blip-on-the-historical-radar-of-humanity-Get-over-yourselves.

[Daniel Peterson]

Whatever else one can say, Moroni's prophecy has definitely been fulfilled.

The mob thought they'd finished Mormonism off when they murdered Joseph Smith. Now, the Carthage Jail is owned by the Church, the Nauvoo Temple has been rebuilt, and the anti-Mormon conspirators who planned and carried out the assassination of the Prophet are only remembered, to the extent that they are remembered, as footnotes to Joseph's biography. There's considerable satisfaction in that.

[Lightbearer]

"Praise to the Man" is one of my favorite hymns in fact you could say it was one of the things that helped me gain a testimony of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I quote it in tribute to the great prophet, the forerunner of this last dispensation:

Praise to the Man

Text: William W. Phelps

Music: Scottish folk song

Scriptures: Doctrine and Covenants 135

Praise to the Man,

Verse 1

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!

Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.

Blessed to open the last dispensation,

Kings shall extol him and nations revere.

Chorus

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;

Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Verse 2

Praise to his mem'ry he died as a martyr;

Honored and blest be his ever great name!

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,

Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame

Verse 3

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.

Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,

Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Verse 4

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;

Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.

Millions shall know "Brother Joseph" again.

Just reading these words still gets to me. Having stood in Carthage Jail where the Prophet was murdered in cold blood...I understand the meaning of the words of John in the book of Revelation:

(Revelation 6:9-11)

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled."

Indeed the Prophet Joseph is one of these that "were slain for the word of God and for the testimony [he] held." I would like to add my testimony that I know that he was a true prophet of God that he was a witness of the reality of the restoration of the ancient Gospel of Jesus Christ. He did see God the Father and His beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ in the sacred grove in upstate New York. He did translate by the gift and power of God the Book of Mormon which is another witness for Jesus Christ. And the keys of the priesthood were restored by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is The Lord's true Church here upon the earth.

[Gervin]

The mob thought they'd finished Mormonism off when they murdered Joseph Smith.

I'd be curious to read the accounts of the mob's thinking in this regard - or was this supposed to just be a faith-promoting moment?

[Daniel Peterson]

I'd be curious to read the accounts of the mob's thinking in this regard - or was this supposed to just be a faith-promoting moment?

There were a number of statements to that effect. Just as the Salt Lake Tribune thought that Mormonism was finished with the death of Brigham Young.

I'm immersed in writing a book, and I'm headed out of town early tomorrow morning. But such sentiments are fairly easily found in the historical literature, and you're certainly welcome to read them.

[Olavarria]

There were a number of statements to that effect. Just as the Salt Lake Tribune thought that Mormonism was finished with the death of Brigham Young.

I'm immersed in writing a book, and I'm headed out of town early tomorrow morning. But such sentiments are fairly easily found in the historical literature, and you're certainly welcome to read them.

what kind of book are you writing? what is it about?

[Gervin]

There were a number of statements to that effect. Just as the Salt Lake Tribune thought that Mormonism was finished with the death of Brigham Young.

I'm immersed in writing a book, and I'm headed out of town early tomorrow morning. But such sentiments are fairly easily found in the historical literature, and you're certainly welcome to read them.

Since the mob consisted of around 200 men I would hope there were some statements to that effect ... if the destruction of Mormonism was their desired effect. Perhaps someone with some familiarity with "historical literature" who isn't busy writing a book at this moment can provide some source statements.

[Daniel Peterson]

what kind of book are you writing? what is it about?

It's a response to Christopher Hitchens's bestselling god is Not Great. With Bill Hamblin. I'm having a great time.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Since the mob consisted of around 200 men I would hope there were some statements to that effect ... if the destruction of Mormonism was their desired effect. Perhaps someone with some familiarity with "historical literature" who isn't busy writing a book at this moment can provide some source statements.

The newspapers reports after the martyrdom exhibit the general feeling of the time, for example, the New York Weekly Herald.

The headline reads: "Important News from Nauvoo: Death of Joe and Hyrum Smith: Terrible Excitement in the West." In part the article said, "We yesterday received by western mail the following particulars of the death of Joseph Smith the Prophet and his brother Hyrum. They were both shot. There was tremendous excitement in the west in consequence of their death" (8 July 1844).

The article concluded with a prophecy of their own: "Thus ends Mormonism."

Thomas Ford, a blatant enemy to the saints, who essentially decided to allow the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum hoping it would appease his mobocratic citizens and rid the state of the Mormon problem had this to say:

Thus fell Joe Smith, the most successful impostor in modern times; a man who, though ignorant and coarse, had some great natural parts which fitted him for temporary success, but which were so obscured and counteracted by the inherent corruption and vices of his nature that he never could succeed in establishing a system of policy which looked to permanent success in the future. [Thomas Ford, A History of Illinois: From Its Commencement as a State in 1818 to 1847 (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1995), p. 249]

Thomas Sharp had a lot to say about it as well, though I can't track it down right now.

[cjcampbell]

It's a response to Christopher Hitchens's bestselling god is Not Great. With Bill Hamblin. I'm having a great time.

From Hitchens's book: "In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith..."

People have been predicting the demise of Joseph Smith's reputation and the end of 'Mormonism' for centuries. I somehow doubt that Hitchens will be any better at predicting the future than those who came before him.

[Jaybear]

Thomas Sharp had a lot to say about it as well, though I can't track it down right now.

Gervin's call for references addressed Peterson's claim that he had some insight as to what the "mob" was thinking.

I would be curious to see his source for that claim as well.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Gervin's call for references addressed Peterson's claim that he had some insight as to what the "mob" was thinking.

I would be curious to see his source for that claim as well.

Sharp was one of the men tried for the murder of the prophet and the patriarch. He is said to have been part of the mob, and certainly incited much of the furor over the "Mormon question" as some called it. He said something to the effect of "cut off the head, the body dies." I invite you to research it, as Dr. Petey and I have, at least slightly, to find the sources. I'd be happy to provide you with more if I had unlimited time to search out proofs that individual members of the mob thought killing the smith brothers would end Mormonism. I think the examples I cited are pretty good, thanks. So much for the effort, eh?

Let's try this: Why did the mob kill the Smith's? Did they think it would STRENGTHEN the Mormon church?

[Daniel Peterson]

Gervin's call for references addressed Peterson's claim that he had some insight as to what the "mob" was thinking.

I would be curious to see his source for that claim as well.

Good grief. You two are amazing.

Anyway, Tom Sharp was intimately involved not only in the agitation prior to the murder but in the planning of the action. It's possible that his motivations were utterly different from those of the mob -- perhaps they were concerned about Mormon-inflicted damage to the fragile ecosystem of the upper Mississippi, and imagined that eliminating two randomly chosen Mormons and seriously wounding a third would lessen Nauvoo's environmental impact -- but that seems unlikely.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Good grief. You two are amazing.

Anyway, Tom Sharp was intimately involved not only in the agitation prior to the murder but in the planning of the action. It's possible that his motivations were utterly different from those of the mob -- perhaps they were concerned about Mormon-inflicted damage to the fragile ecosystem of the upper Mississippi -- but that seems unlikely.

I'll remember their attitude next time they have questions, and rather than doing their homework for them in a thankless manner, they can try www.Google.com for a faith-promoting act of actual research, or forever hold their peace.

[Daniel Peterson]

I'll remember their attitude next time they have questions, and rather than doing their homework for them in a thankless manner, they can try www.Google.com for a faith-promoting act of actual research, or forever hold their peace.

You would be wise to do that. Their act is pretty consistent. It generally involves insinuations that one has lied or misrepresented a situation in order to spread a "faith-promoting" falsehood, accompanied by a seemingly complete lack of any interest in lifting a finger themselves to do even the simplest research. Petty sniping. Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. The act began to pall quite a while ago.

[Paul Ray]

Let's try this: Why did the mob kill the Smith's? Did they think it would STRENGTHEN the Mormon church?

Idiot wanting to raise a rucus answers by saying:

Yeah, that's why they did it. And you can't prove I'm wrong, can you. No, I didn't think so.

It's a good thing we don't have any idiots writing posts, that I'm aware of.

... and now back to our regularly schedule program...

Yes, there is proof that the prophecy was fulfilled.

Praise to Joseph!

[Scott Lloyd]

Gervin's call for references addressed Peterson's claim that he had some insight as to what the "mob" was thinking.

I would be curious to see his source for that claim as well.

Is Gervin (and are you) limiting his definition of "mob" to 200 men? Is he thus excluding any instigators/agitators/leaders/supporters who weren't actually on the scene? That's a rather unreasonable standard, don't you think?

Is Gervin (and are you) simply being argumentative, or does he (do you) sincerely doubt that the intent behind the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith was to throw Mormonism into disarray and bring on its eventual dissolution?

If so, what's your take on the matter? Was it simply a grudge against the Smith brothers personally with no offense directed toward the Church? Then why did the oppression resume the moment it became apparent the Church had not come to its end?

[Doctor Steuss]

Sharp was one of the men tried for the murder of the prophet and the patriarch. He is said to have been part of the mob, and certainly incited much of the furor over the "Mormon question" as some called it. He said something to the effect of "cut off the head, the body dies." I invite you to research it, as Dr. Petey and I have, at least slightly, to find the sources. I'd be happy to provide you with more if I had unlimited time to search out proofs that individual members of the mob thought killing the smith brothers would end Mormonism. I think the examples I cited are pretty good, thanks. So much for the effort, eh?

Let's try this: Why did the mob kill the Smith's? Did they think it would STRENGTHEN the Mormon church?

Sharp was indeed a major instigator of the mob's formation (and according to George Laubâ??s Nauvoo Journal, Sharp was â??the head of the mob,â? along with Levi Williams). Just two weeks prior to the murders at Carthage, Sharp's paper (the Warsaw Signal) published on June 12, 1844 the following:

"War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens arise, one and all!!! Can you stand by, and suffer such infernal devils! to rob men of their property and rights, without avenging themâ?¦. Let [your comment] be made with powder and ball!!!"

[Scott Lloyd]

I'll remember their attitude next time they have questions, and rather than doing their homework for them in a thankless manner, they can try www.Google.com for a faith-promoting act of actual research, or forever hold their peace.

YH8 has already provided on this thread a rather clever mimicry of the stock anti-Mormon mantra on this topic. (See fourth post down.) Thus pre-empted, they have to try something else.

That's my theory, anyway.

[YH8]

YH8 has already provided on this thread a rather clever mimicry of the stock anti-Mormon mantra on this topic. (See fourth post down.) Thus pre-empted, they have to try something else.

That's my theory, anyway.

Thanks. Now I know at least one person reads my posts and understands me.

[Paul Ray]

Thanks. Now I know at least one person reads my posts and understands me.

Make that two people.

I thought about telling you that I enjoyed what you said but I didn't want it to go to your head.