johnny Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 mickisdaddy,The way I look at that it point out that there is one God that is a mediator between a separate God (our Father in Heaven) and us. This would point to two Gods.How could it point to "two Gods"?The Bible reveals that "the Word was God" ... it does not say it was a second God.Jesus and the Bible reveal "one God".John 1[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.[34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.1John 1[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) Mark 12[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:[32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:Verse 16 points to the God of the Old Testament being manifest in the flesh. Jesus Christ (the God of the Old Testament) coming to Earth and taking a body of flesh.Verse 16 points to that "God was in Christ"2Cor 5[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Col 2[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.It just all boils down to the interpritation of the verses. It is a point of view. What verses in either the Old or the New Testament reveal "three Gods" like Joseph SMith taught?
Tsuzuki Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 mickisdaddy, don't waste your time. johnny lacks the reasoning capacity for an intelligent conversation.
Hammer Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 I do not believe the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Holy Scripture reveals that the Father transcends:Well then explain this Holy Scritpure:John 5: 19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he aseeth the bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. If The Father has no body how does Christ do what He does?
Tsuzuki Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 If The Father has no body how does Christ do what He does?That can still be taken metaphorically.
Hammer Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 If The Father has no body how does Christ do what He does?That can still be taken metaphorically.Only if you choose to run from the greater knowledge it presents.
BCSpace Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 The LDS belief is not far from that [the trinity], however. We use different terminology.I must disagree completely. I always shudder whenever another LDS person (including some higher ups who should know better) compares the trinity hypothesis to the Biblical LDS doctrine of the Godhead. The two are as different as night and day.It's as if simply naming the Three is the ultimate description. It's not.
johnny Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Well then explain this Holy Scritpure:John 5: 19The Father's "showing" is to be taken in the sense that the Father communicates knowledge to the Son, as He communicates His essence.
Hammer Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Well then explain this Holy Scritpure:John 5: 19The Father's "showing" is to be taken in the sense that the Father communicates knowledge to the Son, as He communicates His essence.Not so. That is really far afield of what Christ actually stated.
Tsuzuki Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 If The Father has no body how does Christ do what He does?That can still be taken metaphorically.Only if you choose to run from the greater knowledge it presents.True. But I don't think johnny's ready for that lesson yet.
emeliza Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 BCSpace Today, 09:38 AM I must disagree completely. I always shudder whenever another LDS person (including some higher ups who should know better) compares the trinity hypothesis to the Biblical LDS doctrine of the Godhead. The two are as different as night and day.I must disagree. They are not as different as night and day. They are different, but not where one is completely dark and the other completely light. It would be a better comparison to say they are like the sun and the moon in differences. They both have light, but one gathers/reflects light from the other. I honestly agree that the Godhead is what brings the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together to be as One God. The Trinity uses different terminology. What exactly is your understanding BC?
johnny Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Not so. That is really far afield of what Christ actually stated.Clearly Christ is not saying he saw a Father that has a body of flesh and bones."Glory" can be seen.
David Waltz Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hello BC,You wrote:>>I must disagree completely. I always shudder whenever another LDS person (including some higher ups who should know better) compares the trinity hypothesis to the Biblical LDS doctrine of the Godhead. The two are as different as night and day.>>Would it not be better to say â??your personal interpretation of the LDS doctrine of Godâ?? I know too much about the history of interpretation in LDS thought to entertain the idea that there is but ONE interpretation. So, though you certainly have the freedom to expound LDS doctrine as you see it, other faithful members of the CoJCoLDS have the right to disagree with you.As for your statement that: â??The two are as different as night and dayâ?, the thread that I linked sure seems to present solid evidence to the contrary. Here is the link again: http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=13798Grace and peace,David
TrespassersW Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 As for your statement that: â??The two are as different as night and dayâ?, the thread that I linked sure seems to present solid evidence to the contrary.David,I've been fascinated by your posts on the Trinity, though I'm not entirely certain that I understand them. It seems to me that you see the Trinity as refering to the group of divine persons who are unified in intention, action, and other attributes. Would that be a fair description? Or have I missed the mark?
Hammer Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 cdowis,This is our belief -- John 17:19-23. This is my belief. The Catholic Church teaches the following about john 17:260 - John 17 reveals that men can enter into the unity of the Blessed Trinity. Men are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity.2825 - Men can unite their will to the Son's will. United with Jesus and with the power of his Holy Spirit, we can surrender our will to him becoming one spirit with him, and thereby accomplish his will.Now that you have a statement of our belief, you can go ahead and refute it.Are these also statementd of your LDS belief?- Joseph Smith taught three GOds (History of the Church, 6:474). - The Mormon Church teaches three Gods (Mormon Bible Dictionary - God). - The Godhead consist of three separate Gods. (Mormon Bible Dictionary Godhead).God the FatherGod Jesus ChristGodhead Holy GhostHave you read Mosiah 15?
johnny Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Have you read Mosiah 15?Yes I have read Mosiah 15 and I have read the following:- Joseph Smith taught three Gods (History of the Church, 6:474). - The Mormon Church teaches three Gods (Mormon Bible Dictionary - God). - The Godhead consist of three separate Gods. (Mormon Bible Dictionary Godhead). - Mormon Scriptures reveal that many Gods created (Abr 4) -- (Abr5).
Hammer Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Not so. That is really far afield of what Christ actually stated.Clearly Christ is not saying he saw a Father that has a body of flesh and bones."Glory" can be seen.But it doesn't say he saw His glory doing stuff. It says He saw His Father doing stuff. You can rewrite the book ifyou like, but I don't think many will read it and take it as fact.
Hammer Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Have you read Mosiah 15?Yes I have read Mosiah 15 and I have read the following:- Joseph Smith taught three Gods (History of the Church, 6:474). - The Mormon Church teaches three Gods (Mormon Bible Dictionary - God). - The Godhead consist of three separate Gods. (Mormon Bible Dictionary Godhead). - Mormon Scriptures reveal that many Gods created (Abr 4) -- (Abr5).We believe in a God head which contains three personages, one being of spirit the other two being flesh and bone.Three Gods in individual distinct personages, but one God in works, power, authority, love, purpose etc etc.We are to become one with Christ as He is one with the Father. Have you ever read the NT?
johnny Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Hammer,Have you ever read the NT?I have read the NT and the OT. Neither the Old nor the New Testament reveal "three Gods" like Joseph SMith taught.
Paul Ray Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 I think saying "three Gods" is like saying "three Men".There is only one being, but many persons.Do you know what Man is?Do you know what God is?To me there is one AND three of each of them... depending on what I mean when I say that.
mickismommy Posted October 20, 2006 Author Posted October 20, 2006 Wow... a girl leaves her thread alone for one day and look what happens...Sorry I was away, my daughter had the day off and requires constant supervision sooo, yeah.Um, okay, I am having sensory overload. I cannot possibly sit down and review every scripture that was presented by jonny right now. I like to read the entire chapter to get each one in it's context. I have read them before, but I want to review and contemplate and that takes time. I might not get to it until Monday. Besides, Im sick and crabby. My DH awnsered some of it while he was at work, but I'll try and awnser it more in depth.Meanwhile, Thanks to everyone that posted! This is becoming a bousterous thread! I am glad it's interesting. The only thing that I ask is that we try to be kinder to one another, on both sides of the discussion. I know it is easy to come off sounding sharper than you mean to online, but the tone was getting sorta mean there for a bit. jonny, I know you are passionate about your beliefs. I know nothing I can say will change your beliefs. I am mearly sharing my beliefs with you. take them for what they are. I hold my beliefs as close to my heart as you hold yours, so please, tone the critisism down some? I do not know if you are here to prostyllise to us "darn Mormons" , or find out about what we believe, but this thread is just a presentation of what I believe. I may be wrong, but I leave that to God to judge.ThanksMM
flavo Posted October 23, 2006 Posted October 23, 2006 Hammer,QUOTEHave you ever read the NT?I have read the NT and the OT. Neither the Old nor the New Testament reveal "three Gods" like Joseph SMith taught.John 173 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.That is a very big 'and'. God AND Jesus Christ. Two distinct individuals.
Hammer Posted October 23, 2006 Posted October 23, 2006 Hammer,QUOTEHave you ever read the NT?I have read the NT and the OT. Neither the Old nor the New Testament reveal "three Gods" like Joseph SMith taught.John 173 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.That is a very big 'and'. God AND Jesus Christ. Two distinct individuals.Good deal!I don't think most EVs really know the bible. They listen to their preachers but don't do a lot of individual study. At least the ones here don't.
johnny Posted October 23, 2006 Posted October 23, 2006 flavo,That is a very big 'and'. God AND Jesus Christ. Two distinct individuals.Two distinct persons but not two distinct Gods, their is only one God.Elohim and Jehovah are not two distinct Gods.
Hammer Posted October 23, 2006 Posted October 23, 2006 flavo,That is a very big 'and'. God AND Jesus Christ. Two distinct individuals.Two distinct persons but not two distinct Gods, their is only one God.Elohim and Jehovah are not two distinct Gods.Unless you would like to ripped most the of the pages from the Scriptures, you would have to know there is more than just one reference about these subjects. The NT teaches that The Father gave Christ 'these' so that they could be one as Christ and His Father are one.Christ is God. Do you need references or do you read the NT?
Hammer Posted October 23, 2006 Posted October 23, 2006 Romans 15: 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. You will notice what I have put in red. Is it the gospel of Christ or the Gospel of God? Christ is God. It is His gospel.
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