Oneness Of God

[johnny]

Rancors&cheese,

but reality does not agree. LDS pray to the Father and no one else. It's as simple as that.

It appears that LDS Church disagree with those in the early church who worshipped the Son.

Matt 28

[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

John 20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[johnny]

Son,

that is where the semantics kicks in.

Could you define or describe these semantics that kick in ...

But I believe they are both Gods,

And I believe the Father and the Son are one. God was manifest in the flesh.

Christ could say Hi to someone, and God could say Hi as well.

But Stephen did not say Hi to Christ, then say Hi to God. Stephen called upon God and said Lord Jesus.

[Rancors&cheese]

It appears that LDS Church disagree with those in the early church who worshipped the Son.

Matt 28

[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

John 20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

You are playing the scripture shopping game:

Matt 6:6 - pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matt. 6:9 - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,

Luke 11: 2 - When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

John 17 - Jesus himself prayed to the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It appears that you disagree with Jesus, who worshiped the Father.

[johnny]

Rancors&cheese,

It appears that you disagree with Jesus, who worshiped the Father.

It appears you disagree with those in the New Testament who prayed to the Son ...

[Rancors&cheese]

And their are other scriptures where the Son is prayed to ...

Nonetheless, you said that LDS disagree with the early church because we worship the Father. That is obviously not the case. Our basis for worshiping the Father is well founded in the Bible.

And let me give you a little homework assignment. Read through the scriptures where Jesus is speaking and keep a tally of how many times he directs us to worship the Father (or where he himself worships the Father) compared to how many times he directs us to worship himself. I think you already know which side will have the vast majority of the tally-marks.

[Rancors&cheese]

It appears that you disagree with Jesus, who worshiped the Father.

It appears you disagree with those in the New Testament who prayed to the Son ...

Okay, you follow those people, I'll follow Jesus, and we'll se where that gets each of us.

[johnny]

Rancors&cheese,

Our basis for worshiping the Father is well founded in the Bible.

The basis for worshiping the Son is well founded in the Bible.

And let me give you a little homework assignment.

Here is little homework assignment, read through the scriptures to discover where the Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father.

[Tsuzuki]

Arguing about the nature of God makes the baby Jesus cry.

[Son]

Rancors&cheese,

It appears that you disagree with Jesus, who worshiped the Father.

It appears you disagree with those in the New Testament who prayed to the Son ...

where did those in the new testament pray to the Son?

And I think also Christ is the infallable witness.

The apostles and deciples words are easily corrupted by interpretations of the flesh.

[johnny]

Son,

where did those in the new testament pray to the Son?

The Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:9-12; 1Cor 1:2).

And I think also Christ is the infallable witness.

I also think Christ is the infallable witness, Christ is worshipped:

Matt 28

[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

John 20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Acts 7

[59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

The apostles and deciples words are easily corrupted by interpretations of the flesh.

I am still waiting for your interpreation of who was manifest in the flesh.

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[Rancors&cheese]

Here is little homework assignment, read through the scriptures to discover where the Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father.

I'm not aware of one place where the Son is prayed to as an equal of the Father. Scriptures where Jesus is referred to as "Lord" do not count. For one, it was a title of respect, not worship.

[Son]

Son,

where did those in the new testament pray to the Son?

The Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:9-12; 1Cor 1:2).

And I think also Christ is the infallable witness.

I also think Christ is the infallable witness, Christ is worshipped:

Matt 28

[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

John 20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Acts 7

[59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

The apostles and deciples words are easily corrupted by interpretations of the flesh.

I am still waiting for your interpreation of who was manifest in the flesh.

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

yes people also said to him good master, and he said call me not good there is one that is good, the Father in heaven.

Just because people worshipped him doesn't mean that He commanded it. (that one's from my wife)

[johnny]

Rancors&cheese,

I'm not aware of one place where the Son is prayed to as an equal of the Father.

Try this verse ...

2Cor 12

[8] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Scriptures where Jesus is referred to as "Lord" do not count. For one, it was a title of respect, not worship.

Calling on the Lord Jesus, is more than just a title of respect.

Rom 10

[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1Cor 1

[2] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[johnny]

Son,

yes people also said to him good master, and he said call me not good there is one that is good, the Father in heaven.

What is your point ... what does this have do with praying or worshipping?

Just because people worshipped him doesn't mean that He commanded it. (that one's from my wife)

It does mean he didn't correct them ...

[Rancors&cheese]

I also think Christ is the infallable witness, Christ is worshipped:

Matt 28

[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

The Greek word for worship here is proskuneo, which means to revere. It is used when people show respect to someone of higher rank or nobility. All this verse says is that the people revered Jesus, but that doesn't mean they were treating him like a God, or rather, as they treat the Father.

[Son]

Son,

yes people also said to him good master, and he said call me not good there is one that is good, the Father in heaven.

What is your point ... what does this have do with praying or worshipping?

Just because people worshipped him doesn't mean that He commanded it. (that one's from my wife)

It does mean he didn't correct them ...

My point is he didn't say worship me.

yes, As far as we know He did not correct them.

[johnny]

Rancors&cheese,

doesn't mean they were treating him like a God, or rather, as they treat the Father.

It does mean that the Father and the Son are one (John 10:30), the Son is God (John 1:1), God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16), the Son was given all power (Matt 28:18), and when Stephen called to God he said Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59).

It means that Jesus is our God (John 20:17), the Son is worshipped (Matt 28:17), and the Son is prayed to (1Cor 1:2).

[Son]

Rancors&cheese,

doesn't mean they were treating him like a God, or rather, as they treat the Father.

It does mean that the Father and the Son are one (John 10:30), the Son is God (John 1:1), God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16), the Son was given all power (Matt 28:18), and when Stephen called to God he said Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59).

It means that Jesus is our God (John 20:17), the Son is worshipped (Matt 28:17), and the Son is prayed to (1Cor 1:2).

John 20:17 Touch me not; for Iam not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your, God.

So why does Jesus ascend to His God, if He is God. (don't fit brother)

Matt 28:17 Is this the only time in scripture? I'll go with the reverence from the greek proskuneo as Rancor & Cheese pointed out.

1Cor 1:2 Calling upon the name of Christ is much different than praying to him. The ideal way of calling upon him is with his unspoken name, Christ (annointed with Light), it is a highly spiritual prayer, not one of words, but groanings of the spirit. Energy in motion- Faith in action.

The human interpretation factor is very real here, I think in order to find truth, each must go his way and seek guidance from the Spirit.

But its been fun playing spiritual pong.

Son

[johnny]

Son,

So why does Jesus ascend to His God, if He is God. (don't fit brother)

The Son of God has a God and a Father. When the Son ascends to His God he returns to his glory.

Matt 28:17 Is this the only time in scripture?

Hebrews 1 also reveals that the Son's glory was the brightness of the Father's

Heb 1

[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Matt.28

[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1Cor 1:2 Calling upon the name of Christ is much different than praying to him.

Would you agree that a pray can be a request ... In 2Cor 12:8 it is a request, it is a prayer.

[mickismommy]

Arguing about the nature of God makes the baby Jesus cry.

i agree. i am beggining to regret starting this conversation. i thought we could share our beliefs without being contentious. guess.i was wrong.

mm

[Hammer]

Arguing about the nature of God makes the baby Jesus cry.

i agree. i am beggining to regret starting this conversation. i thought we could share our beliefs without being contentious. guess.i was wrong.

mm

I wonder if anyone who belongs to another religion and finds a need to come to a specifically LDS board is lacking something in their religion and need to come here to fellowship with the saints in order to feel whole?

[mickismommy]

I wonder if anyone who belongs to another religion and finds a need to come to a specifically LDS board is lacking something in their religion and need to come here to fellowship with the saints in order to feel whole?

i wonder that sometimes too. they say they are here to "lead us out of the dark" but the way that they do this is very negative and cannot come from God. it stinks of sour grapes.

[Son]

Johnnies just trying to find his faith; going back and reading the contradictions regarding God and Jesus are apparent.

He is looking for answers while thinking he has them, just like the rest of us. Patience with him.

[mickismommy]

Johnnies just trying to find his faith; going back and reading the contradictions regarding God and Jesus are apparent.

He is looking for answers while thinking he has them, just like the rest of us. Patience with him.

yeah yeah... patient, long suffering... all that jazz...

[JarMan]

The nature of the oneness of God is very ambiguous in the Old and New Testaments. I find it difficult to listen to somebody who believes that there can only be one valid interpretation. I read the Catholic view, for instance, and I see how they came up with it. I read the Mormon interpretation and I see how they understand what they do.

I don't think it helps to misrepresent another religion's view or to tell them what they believe when it is directly contrary to what they say they believe. This just causes the contrarian to lose credibility.

It seems that what underlies the whole argument about the LDS belief in the oneness of God is the debate about whether or not Mormons are Christians. Some people want to define Christianity in some obscure way which will exclude Mormons. I don't know why more Christians don't just acknowledge that we have different understandings of God, but that we all worship the same God. This would be much more productive than trying to tear down a fellow follower of Christ. And much more in line with his teachings.