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Oneness Of God


mickismommy

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On a thread about salvation, grace, works, ect. Theophilus expressed this frustration:

But actions speak louder than words, and when they repeatedly refuse to address all the "one God only" Scriptures, and refuse to address all the "not by works" Scriptures, and refuse to address all the "eternal security" Scriptures, and refuse to address the "no more prophets" Scriptures, etc. etc., then I think that is significant.

okay, let me take on the one God only scriptures. I have had this discussion before with certain EV's to remain nameless... Not in here, but elsewhere. I think I can do it again.

Let me first state that I am just explaining what I understand the scripture to mean from an LDS perspective, and I do not expect anyone to go "oh, yeah, of course! How could I not have seen it? I must go join the Mormons right away!" I know that our views are different, I just want to make sure that you can no longer complain that us Mormons won't adress these scriptures, my dear Mr. Theophilus. After this, you cannot complain that ALL LDS refuse to adress these scriptures. If anyone does, it is because they are busy and it takes a great deal of time to prepare a fully coherant document presenting our views on the subject. As is, I suspect, the reason why many EV's don't take the time to present their views on LDS "pet scripture" (by the way, I find that term to be somewhat condescending, Theo). Not everyone is as lucky as I am to get to stay home in my pj's and hang out on discussion boards all day :P

Just to be straight, I wanted to make sure we are talking about the same scriptures. I read the KJ version, and thus my conclusions are drawn from that.I am looking at :

Deut. 6:4 Mal.2:10, 15-17, Mar. 12:29, John 8:41-42, Gal. 3:20, Eph.4:6, Rom. 3:30, 1 Cor. 8:4,6

There are so many, but lets just look at these. They are the strongest points of scripture that deal with the Oneness of God, am I right? Of coarse, Deuteronomy 6:4 is extremely important, especially because our Savior quoted it in Mark 12: 29 "Hear, Oh Isreal; The Lord our God is One Lord" Lets start with the LDS perspective on this, shall we? I mightn't time for all of them, but this scripture does sum up the point of One God, right?

I see it this way: Moses was talking to a people that had been tempted into idol worship and polytheism a few times already. He had to make sure that they were VERY clear that these things were NOT to be tollerated. As modern followers of Christ, and as a branch of the house of Isreal, this statement is very important for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints to hear and follow. The Lord our God is One Lord, but what does that mean? Is it the literal, God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one personage with three faces? Certainly, we must reject that idea, for it would suggest the Father hung on the cross, and that Jesus spoke to Himself. That concept is Modalism and was strictly denounced in the fourth century when the Christian world accepted the concept of the Trinity.

This doctrine [the Trinity] explains the concept of One God, and yet supports the idea of three personages, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost. Each are diety, because they are one God, and yet they could speak to each other because they where three personages. One God, Three personages. Don't quote me on this, I am not an expert. It seems to fit the requirments for an understanding of the uniquness of God, and it certainly fulfills the unequivical statement in Deut. 6:4.

The LDS belief is not far from that, however. We use different terminology. Maybe it was all those years in isolation from the rest of the Christian world, but there, in Utah, those Mormons came up with their own set of "theological vocabulary" and I think ALOT of the misunderstandings come from our use of that vocabulary. Don't get me wrong: much of our doctrine is different from the rest of Christiandom. I cannot deny this. I can defend it, and back my defense up with the Bible, but I am focusing my thoughts on this One subject.

The LDS belief is that the three personages of the Godhead are so perfectly united that they are One God. We believe that God the Father wills it, and God the Son does it. We believe that God has a message, and the Spirit delivers it. We believe that they are in such perfect harmony that they can not be seperated from one another, that they're oneness is complete. Not a physical oneness, for we believe that The Father and The Son have perfected bodies, that we are made in their image. We believe their oneness is perfect and complete, mind, will, conciousness, ect. Is that out of line with the Bible? Is that even very far away from the Trinity? I don't know, for I do not have a perfect understanding of these things, neither can I during this mortal existance. I do think that this verse from Doctrine and Covenants (a part of the cannon of the LDS faith) sums up our belief in the nature of God: D&C 20:28 "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen."

But are we not commanded to be One as The Father and The Son are One? John 10:11-21

Does it not say in the Old Testiment that we are gods? Psm. 82:6, in reality, this is what is meant by becoming gods in the LDS faith, for there is no God outside of the One True God.

Doesn't this support our belief in a unity of will and Spirit?

Has any one ever felt the beginings of this oneness? Have you felt the twinge or inkling of a harmony between you and God, or you and another human? I have. I have felt this connection between myself and my husband. Not perfect, not even a miniscule portion of what exists with our One True God, but what I felt was glorious beyond description. It is like thinking with one mind that has the power of two. And I have felt a connection with God that is uniquly indescribable. I can only say that one time I felt like a child in His arms, and another, I nearly drove off the road in surprize and awe when I felt His hands on my head. He uses these physical feelings for me, to get through to my rusty and static filled brain a concept that I have been searching to understand my entire life. Oneness. The Oneness of God, as well as the imperfect oneness between us humans, and the oneness that is possible between us and God.

I am really not meaning to sound weird or "new age", but I think that this basically describes my belief system, better than the characterization of some EV's that would make it look like LDS believe in multiple Gods. We don't. We believe in every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. We read the Bible and come away with a certain set of conclusions. Those conclusions are supported by our other scriptures.

For me, it comes down to the quiet moments with God, those times after I have studied and pondered, when I am in earnest prayer with my Lord. The Spirit of God tells me what is True. I know the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the devil, the Fruits of each are quite different from one another. The fruits of God are peace and Joy, the fruits of the devil are contention and biterness. I have seen both at work in people's lives, and I have felt each as well. I try to uproot anything that brings forth the fruit of the devil. The gospel of Jesus Christ, and even more to the point, the gospel of Jesus Christ taught through the LDS faith brings forth peace, love, and joy. Is there anything more I can say about that? Nothing is more important. If God is in us, then it will show. Are there some LDS that are not with God? yes. Are there some EV's that are not with God? Yes. I will let Him sort that out.

Your Sister In Christ, <_<

Mickismommy

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I'm at the point where I like one liners.

Anything else might get me confused.

Most of the time when I read real paragraphs I am reading some scriptures. <_<

:P

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Good explanation to me. Most of the Protestants or EV's I personally know, basically understand the Trinity in the same way. One God, three persons. I only know two people who believe in the modalist view and very few that believe that they all share the same body with three different personalities inside.

My explanation was that was similar to an army with a General, Sergeant, and Private (I am not knowledgeable enough to figure out what ranks they should actually have to coincide with their duties). The army is how they are all tied together doing one job, for one purpose, being completely in unity. Granted that might not be how the real army works, but you get the idea.

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I, too, appreciate and relate to your explanation of your beliefs in this regard.

My only issue would be with the subtitle of the thread, being "A long winded explanation of LDS belief."

My concern stems from the fact that LDS hold the creedal statements to be an abomination to God, and quote God to that effect.

It seems, though, that too often, LDS rush to fill the void created by the rejection of the creeds by proposing new creeds of their own. It is when these LDS creedal statements are viewed as "LDS belief" that things can go awry, because then we have to get into the question of what happens to those who reject these creedal statements of "LDS belief."

There are those in the church who think that a rejection of "LDS belief," as embodied in Latter-day creeds, affects ultimate destiny in the afterlife.

When we come to this point, we have effectively gone full circle and perhaps inadvertently adopted the same thing God called an abomination.

I know that is not what you were thinking, inasmuch as the body of your post distinguishes that these are your personal beliefs. It is only the subtitle that could be misleading.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Hello mickismommy,

I thoroughly enjoyed your post. You reflections on this subject are very close to mine. As for â??long windedâ?, I shall refer you to an older thread that I started, in which I address some of the same issues at length; perhaps at too great of length! :P

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=13798

Grace and peace,

David

P.S. There seems to be a glitch with the boards new format, for I had to edit in my posts all â??dashesâ?, â??apostrophesâ?, â??quotation marksâ?, and â??elispesâ?.

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Beautifully written and well thought out, I say, as the movie reviewers might. :P

I would only add my thoughts as well. I believe one God is referring to one power, one purpose, one authority.

<_<

Thanks Hammer, yes I totally agree with that addition!

Consig: Thanks, yes, you are right. These are my thoughts, not a creedal statement of the LDS Church. I think I choose to say it that way to get more intrest in the thread? I'll change the sub title if it is truely bothersome. perhaps " the gospel according to Mickismommy" ?

Thanks everyone!

MM

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We use different terminology.

I've been saying this for a long time. It's nice to hear it from someone else.

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Beautifully written and well thought out, I say, as the movie reviewers might. :P

I would only add my thoughts as well. I believe one God is referring to one power, one purpose, one authority.

<_<

Thanks Hammer, yes I totally agree with that addition!

Consig: Thanks, yes, you are right. These are my thoughts, not a creedal statement of the LDS Church. I think I choose to say it that way to get more intrest in the thread? I'll change the sub title if it is truely bothersome. perhaps " the gospel according to Mickismommy" ?

Thanks everyone!

MM

I would never want my comments to make you even think about changing your initial statements. But if you still want to change your subtitle, and if you are able to change your subtitle, you must tell me how you did it, because I have tried before and not been able to do so.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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We use different terminology.

I've been saying this for a long time. It's nice to hear it from someone else.

I agree. :P

And, to avoid appearing as if I'm only padding my post count, I will make two points about this.

I like using "plain" language while trying to "liken all the scriptures" unto me. <_<

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We use different terminology.

I've been saying this for a long time. It's nice to hear it from someone else.

I agree. <_<

And, to avoid appearing as if I'm only padding my post count, I will make two points about this.

I like using "plain" language while trying to "liken all the scriptures" unto me. :unsure:

Thanks Tsuzuki and Paul. Yeah, I like plainness, too. I get confused when I read some of the scholarly stuff.

not that it isn't important, but I sometimes need to translate the scholarly stuff into my own language.

MM :P

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mickismommy,

The LDS belief is not far from that, however. We use different terminology.

The LDS belief is very far from the doctrine of the Trinity. It is more than just "different terminology".

The LDS belief is that the three personages of the Godhead are so perfectly united that they are One God.

My understanding of th LDS Godhead is that three seperate Gods make up the Godhead.

Could you explain how "three Gods" can dwell bodily in Christ (Col 2:9).

Col 2

[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

We believe that they are in such perfect harmony that they can not be seperated from one another, that they're oneness is complete.

You say "they can not be seperated from one another" ... the LDS religion teaches that Elohim and Jehovah are sepearte.

Not a physical oneness, for we believe that The Father and The Son have perfected bodies, that we are made in their image.

The Father does not have physical body of flesh and bones. The Father is pure spirit.

We believe their oneness is perfect and complete, mind, will, conciousness, ect. Is that out of line with the Bible?

LDS believe that their are three seperate Gods. Neither the Old nor the New Testament reveal three seperate Gods. Do you believe the Bible?

Is that even very far away from the Trinity?

The Trinity reveals "one God" ... Joseph Smith taught "three Gods" ... The teachings of the Joseph Smith are very different than the doctrine of the Trinity.

sums up our belief in the nature of God: D&C 20:28 "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen."

You say "one God" ... Are Elohim and Jehovah two sepearte Gods? Holy Scipture shows that Elohim and Jehovah are not seperate Gods (Isa 53:4-6)

Isa 53

[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God(Elohim), and afflicted.

[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD(Jehovah) hath laid on him(Jesus, the Son of God) the iniquity of us all.

But are we not commanded to be One as The Father and The Son are One? John 10:11-21

Are you "one" like John 10:30 reveals ... Do you believe the Father is in the Son? LDS scripture reveals that the Father cannot dwell in a man.

John 10

[30] I and my Father are one

[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Does it not say in the Old Testiment that we are gods? Psm. 82:6, in reality, this is what is meant by becoming gods in the LDS faith, for there is no God outside of the One True God.

Can you become a Creator like God with infinite power? Satan is "a god", does he have infinite power?

Has any one ever felt the beginings of this oneness? Have you felt the twinge or inkling of a harmony between you and God, or you and another human?

I have felt that I am one spirit joined to the Lord (1Cor 6:17).

the characterization of some EV's that would make it look like LDS believe in multiple Gods. We don't.

LDS scripture reveal "multiple Gods" (Abr 4:3; Abr 5:7) during creation.

The Bible reveals God was all alone and by himself during creation (Isa 44)

Isa 44

[6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

We read the Bible and come away with a certain set of conclusions. Those conclusions are supported by our other scriptures.

I read the Bible and conclude that their is "one God" and that our God is "God of gods", I do not conclude "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught.

Mark 12

[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

[32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor 8

[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Deut 10

[17] For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The Spirit of God tells me what is True. I know the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the devil, the Fruits of each are quite different from one another.

It appears your testimony is contrary to my testimony. One of us must be wrong. I testify that Jesus is God (John 20:28; Acts 7:59) and that Jesus is distinct from the Father, but he's not a separate god because there is only one God. Do you testify Jesus is a separate god from God the Father?

John 20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Acts 7

[59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

If God is in us, then it will show.

Do you believe God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself like the Bible reveals (2Cor 5:19)?

Do you believe "there is one God" and that God was manifest in the flesh like the Bible reveals (1Tim 2:5; 1Tim 3:16)?

2Cor 5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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>My understanding of th LDS Godhead is that three seperate Gods make up the Godhead.

You tell us what we believe and then refute your own statement.

This is our belief -- John 17:19-23.

(We can be one with the Father "in the same way" that Christ is one with the Father, and receive the same glory that Christ received from the Father.)

Now that you have a statement of our belief, you can go ahead and refute it.

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johnny,

Let me just touch on one thing that you said in your post

Not a physical oneness, for we believe that The Father and The Son have perfected bodies, that we are made in their image.

The Father does not have physical body of flesh and bones. The Father is pure spirit.

mickismommy stated our belief, then you tried to refute it using your belief. We believe that the Father has a perfected physical body like the perfect resurrected body of Jesus Christ. We believe that the God of the Old Testament is that of Jesus Christ who came to earth took upon himself a body of flesh and now has a perfect resurrected body.

mickisdaddy

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cdowis,

This is our belief -- John 17:19-23.

This is my belief. The Catholic Church teaches the following about john 17:

260 - John 17 reveals that men can enter into the unity of the Blessed Trinity. Men are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity.

2825 - Men can unite their will to the Son's will. United with Jesus and with the power of his Holy Spirit, we can surrender our will to him becoming one spirit with him, and thereby accomplish his will.

Now that you have a statement of our belief, you can go ahead and refute it.

Are these also statementd of your LDS belief?

- Joseph Smith taught three GOds (History of the Church, 6:474).

- The Mormon Church teaches three Gods (Mormon Bible Dictionary - God).

- The Godhead consist of three separate Gods. (Mormon Bible Dictionary Godhead).

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johnny,

One more thing. Look up the word one in the dictionary. Dictionary.com definition of one

The third definition from dictionary.com is:

existing, acting, or considered as a single unit, entity, or individual.

The fourth being:

of the same or having a single kind, nature, or condition: We belong to one team; We are of one resolve.

The use of the word one does not always mean:

being or amounting to a single unit or individual or entire thing, item, or object rather than two or more; a single: one woman; one nation; one piece of cake.

mickisdaddy

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mickisdaddy,

Let me just touch on one thing that you said in your post

I was hoping you would touch on more than one thing in my post since it appears you are interested in scriptures from the Bible.

We believe that the Father has a perfected physical body like the perfect resurrected body of Jesus Christ.

I do not believe the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Holy Scripture reveals that the Father transcends:

Eph 4

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

We believe that the God of the Old Testament is that of Jesus Christ who came to earth took upon himself a body of flesh and now has a perfect resurrected body.

Your belief is not consistent with scripture. Who is the "God of our father"? Scriptrue reveals:

Acts.5

[30] The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts.3

[13] The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

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mickisdaddy,

One more thing. Look up the word one in the dictionary.

Look up in your Bible the word "one" in 1Tim 2:5.

Who was the God that was manifest ... was it the Son or the Father or ...?

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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mickisdaddy,

One more thing. Look up the word one in the dictionary.

Look up in your Bible the word "one" in 1Tim 2:5.

Who was the God that was manifest ... was it the Son or the Father or ...?

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

If you look at 1 Tim 2:5 that would point to two Gods. "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." The way I look at that it point out that there is one God that is a mediator between a separate God (our Father in Heaven) and us. This would point to two Gods.

Verse 16 points to the God of the Old Testament being manifest in the flesh. Jesus Christ (the God of the Old Testament) coming to Earth and taking a body of flesh.

It just all boils down to the interpritation of the verses. It is a point of view.

mickisdaddy

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