From The "theophilus" Blog...

[cksalmon]

Who's Mother was Adam referring to in Genesis 2:24?

T-Shirt

Ooh, touche, touche! I'd never thought of that scripture THAT way before! I'd love to see the response.

And I am quite amused that once again, we are admonished by the legendary Johnny to ditch our physical bodies and become spirits in order to properly worship God.

And I am saddened by the idea of my beloved Heavenly Mother being dragged all over this thread as if she were some abominable pagan conception. I would never stoop to making such comments about Mary, Mother of God, so beloved to Catholics. There are plenty of other things we can discuss or disagree about and I have advocated my stand before for doing so. Can we leave Her alone?

I wish that our belief in our Heavenly Mother and the counsel by our leaders to not discuss Her in detail and with anything but respect, could be respected on this board much as we do the temple ceremony -- even made taboo by the mods.

I really don't think this is Adam speaking. I believe this is an authorial interpolation.

Best.

CKS

[T-Shirt]

Who's Mother was Adam referring to in Genesis 2:24?

T-Shirt

Ooh, touche, touche! I'd never thought of that scripture THAT way before! I'd love to see the response.

And I am quite amused that once again, we are admonished by the legendary Johnny to ditch our physical bodies and become spirits in order to properly worship God.

And I am saddened by the idea of my beloved Heavenly Mother being dragged all over this thread as if she were some abominable pagan conception. I would never stoop to making such comments about Mary, Mother of God, so beloved to Catholics. There are plenty of other things we can discuss or disagree about and I have advocated my stand before for doing so. Can we leave Her alone?

I wish that our belief in our Heavenly Mother and the counsel by our leaders to not discuss Her in detail and with anything but respect, could be respected on this board much as we do the temple ceremony -- even made taboo by the mods.

I really don't think this is Adam speaking. I believe this is an authorial interpolation.

Best.

CKS

Possibly. But Adam is speaking in verse 23, so one could logically say that verse 24 is an extension of Adam's words in verse 23. We don't know for sure, but you certainly can't throw it out. Furthermore, even if it is not Adam's words, it still does not rule out that the author may have made this statement because of Adam's example of leaving his father and mother.

T-Shirt

[johnny]

T-Shirt,

We don't know for sure, but you certainly can't throw it out.

We do know with certainity that Eve was not born of a heavenly mother, she was formed, she was taken from Adam

1Tim 2

[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Gen 2

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

[urroner]

T-Shirt,

We don't know for sure, but you certainly can't throw it out.

We do know with certainity that Eve was not born of a heavenly mother, she was formed, she was taken from Adam

1Tim 2

[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Gen 2

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So God literally ripped a rib from Adam's side and formed Eve from it. I always was taught that that was figurative and not literal. Interesting.

BTW, if I understand my science correctly, all mammals start out as female in the womb, but the addition of certain hormones during the gestation period causes the male formation to kick in. So maybe, if this is true, the Bible has it backwards and Adam was formed from Eve.

[johnny]

freakin a man,

God has a form just like man. Man has two arms, two legs, two eyes ect just as man does because God made man after God likeness.

We are not to confuse our image of God. In no way is God in man's image. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes.

Now I would say that "image" in Gen 1:26 does not prove that God has a body of flesh and bone but that he does have an actual shape or form.

Who is the "us" in Gen 1:26? Who is "our" in Gen 1:26?

Gen 1

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Even spirits have form that is like our bodies.

Can "spirits" transcend, can "spirits" be "above all, and through all"

Eph 4

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[johnny]

urroner,

So God literally ripped a rib from Adam's side and formed Eve from it.

I would describe it like a potter who forms:

Isa 45

[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the claysay to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

[10] Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

[11] Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Zech 12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Job 33

[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

[6] Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

[urroner]

urroner,

So God literally ripped a rib from Adam's side and formed Eve from it.

I would describe it like a potter who forms:

Isa 45

[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the claysay to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

[10] Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

[11] Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Zech 12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Job 33

[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

[6] Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

So, are you saying it's only figurative, so how do we know that Eve didn't have a mother?

[johnny]

Teancum,

Creation out of nothing came to be because God was too "weak" if he used pre-existing matter or organized chaos to make the universe.

It was not that God was too "weak", it was God needs no pre-existent thing to create. Creation out of nothing came from Holy Scripture.

Of course the earliest Christians and the Israelites never had such a notion.

Clearly the earliest Christians taught creation out of nothing (see links below):

http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_creation_out_of_nothing.htm

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/exnihilo.htm

[johnny]

consiglieri,

This is where you lose me. If man is in the image of the Son, and the Son is in the image of the invisible God, then man is in the image of the invisible God.

Not necessarily (see scripture below):

hn 14

[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This is a solid LDS argument for why it is that God does have a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man's.

God does not have a body of flesh and bones because scripture reveals he transcends (see below).

Eph 4

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

the Bible has yet another in a long list of contradictions, inasmuch as it records numerous people actually seeing God.

Their are no contradictions in the Bible. Moses saw the glory of God, Moses did not see the face of God.

[johnny]

urroner,

So, are you saying it's only figurative, so how do we know that Eve didn't have a mother?

1st Timothy did not consider it "figurative" ... I believe God created the creature called man.

1Tim 2

[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

[johnny]

docrick,

I think it is you who believe in a different Jesus than is revealed in the scriptures. We LDS worship Jesus of Nazereth, who was born of Mary and is the Son of God.

I believe LDS believe in a different Jesus than is revealed in the scriptures, scripture does not reveal Jesus being born of a heavenly mother.

Tell me how something "invisible" has "an image"

For example, Moses saw the glory of God, Moses did not see the actual face of God.

[urroner]

docrick,

I think it is you who believe in a different Jesus than is revealed in the scriptures. We LDS worship Jesus of Nazereth, who was born of Mary and is the Son of God.

I believe LDS believe in a different Jesus than is revealed in the scriptures, scripture does not reveal Jesus being born of a heavenly mother.

Tell me how something "invisible" has "an image"

For example, Moses saw the glory of God, Moses did not see the actual face of God.

But didn't Moses see God's back?

Besides, where does it say that the Bible reveals everything about Jesus and his pre-mortal existence or even his mortal existence or even his post-mortal existence.

[johnny]

urroner,

But didn't Moses see God's back?

"Glory" can have "back" ...

Exod.33

[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

[urroner]

urroner,

But didn't Moses see God's back?

"Glory" can have "back" ...

Exod.33

[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

So God said that He has a face and a hand, and a back.

[johnny]

urroner,

So God said that He has a face and a hand, and a back.

How big is his hand ... how can his hand hold breath?

Job 12 says:

Job.12

[10] In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

[urroner]

urroner,

So God said that He has a face and a hand, and a back.

How big is his hand ... how can his hand hold breath?

Job 12 says:

Job.12

[10] In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Somethings can be figurative and somethings literal. Is God love or is He a fire or is God spirit?

I believe God has a physical quality, so I believe God does have a face, a hand, and a back, like it says in Exodus.

[johnny]

urroner,

I believe God has a physical quality, so I believe God does have a face, a hand, and a back, like it says in Exodus.

And the Early Church Father's believed he did not have a face, a hand, and a back.

Origen (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225])

No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however, that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words "when" and "never" are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity.

Clement of Alexandria: Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]

"The first substance is everything which subsists by itself, as a stone is called a substance. The second is a substance capable of increase, as a plant grows and decays. The third is animated and sentient substance, as animal, horse. The fourth is animate, sentient, rational substance, as man. Wherefore each one of us is made as consisting of all, having an immaterial soul and a mind, which is the image of God" (Fragment from On Providence [A.D. 200]). ... "Being is in God. God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced" (ibid.). ... "What is God? â??God,â?? as the Lord says, â??is a spirit.â?? Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself" (ibid.). ... "No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form"

[urroner]

Johnny, sorry, I don't have much time, so I went to Lord Kerry's site and pulled this down.

God's Material Body This research indicates that Early Christians, in fact, did think of God in material terms.

Is God merely by nature "spirit"? The ancient Israelites believed that God's spirit has bodily form. Moreover, there is no reason to believe that spirit is somehow contrary to material states. God consistently revealed himself in human form in the Bible. Terence Fretheim reviewed the appearances of God in the Old Testament and finds it stirking that God *always* appears in human form. ("The Suffering of God", he notes Exo. 24:10, God appears and under his *feet* is a work of sapphire, God also ate and drank with Israel - implying a physical body. Amos 7:7 and 9:1 speak of God standing. Isaiah 6:1 says God was sitting on a throne. Jeremiah 1:9 says God put forth his *hand* and touched his throne. in RSV Ezekiel 1:26 Ezekiel sees God seated above the "likeness of a throne...a likeness as it were in human form." RSV Numbers 12:8 tells of speaking *mouth to mouth* and "of the form of the Lord". RSV Exodus 33:21-23 refers to the place by God and to God's back and hand. Acts 7:56 says Christ was on the right hand of God.)

It may be said that the human form says something not only about God but also about the relationship between God and world/people. Fretheim further notes something interesting that Christians grossly misunderstand. It is a mistake to assume a discontinuity between spirit and materiality in Hebrew thought:

"Is the human form one which God assumes for the sake of appearance; or is there an essential continuity between the form and God as God is, or both? It would be a mistake to move to a consideration of God as spirit in this connection. It is remarkable how seldom the OT, and even the NT uses such language to speak of God....The spiritual and the physical/material are not mutually exclusive categories. To speak of God as spirit does not necessarily entail formlessness."

So if God is spirit - and the Bible emphatically declares this truth - it does not mean that he does not have material form! It is consistent to say that God, *in the sense of an individual person* has a body of spirit (e.g., Ether 3:16). Indeed, David Paulsen has demonstrated that "spirit" was considered to be a species of material states in late antiquity! (Paulsen, "Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Being: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses," in "Harvard Theological Review" 83 (1990): 108-9 - see below)

"While final clarity cannot be achieved on this point on the basis of the evidence we have, it is probable that Israel did not conceive of God in terms of formlessness, but rather that the human form in the divine appearances constituted an enfleshment which bore essential continuities with the form which God was believe to have." (Fretheim, "The Suffering of God," p. 105).

The fact that Israel believed God has a human form is quite clear from Gen 1:26 where God makes man in their image (demut), and their likeness (tselem). That this image and likeness refers to *genetic* resemblance is made clear from Gen 5:1,3 where Adam begets a son after his own likeness (tselem) after his image (demut) and called his name Seth.

The biblical record fully supports the Mormon view that God has a human bodily form - or more accurately, humans have bodies made after God's image. God is not so much anthropomorphic as persons are theomorphic. (From Blake T. Ostler's review in "Review of Books", vol. 8, #2, 1996, pp. 143ff)

David Paulsen notes that Origen points out that nowhere in the Bible is God explicitly described as incorporeal. The Greek term "asomatos" for incorporeal does not appear in the Bible. And when this term appears in noncanonical Christian writings the use of the term meant for Early Christians "a material body that is just much finer and palpable than those conceived through the senses." (Paulsen, "Ibid." p. 108).

Origen even noted that the text John 4:24 "God is spirit" was initially understood as proof ***against*** incorporeal thinking!

"I know that some will attempt to say that, even according to the declaration of our own scriptures, God is a body, because they find it said in the Gospel according to John that God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Spirit according to them is to be regarded as nothing less than a body." (Paulsen, p. 109).

The Greek term "pneuma" literally meant air, or breath, thus implying that spirit is both material and corporeal. Interesting also, for the Christian Stoics, since existence is confined to material bodies, God being a spirit, was only the purest of all bodies! (Paulsen, p. 109).

Fascinating too is the fact that Origen argues against the Christians who believed the corporeality of God! In "De Principiis" he argues that scriptures that describe God as spirit, fire, light, etc., which, literally understood, would indicate that God is corporeal, so Origen says they ought to be understood allegorically instead!

In "Homily III" Origen acknowledged that Jews as well as Christians supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. Origen notes that the philosophers despise these stories, therefore, to keep the peace with them, he tries to convince the Christians that God speaks, but not really with a mouth! God has passions, anger, hate, love, but not in the Christian way of thinking, but rather as the philosophers think, as allegorical! Origen specifically says that the learned Melito was among the prominant and prolific Christians of the second-century who believed that God is embodied. In his "Selecta in Genesim" he links Melito as *among* the Christians who taught that God has a body in the form of humans. ("Prius discutiendum est ubi consistat illud, ad imaginem, in corpore, an in anima. Et in primis videamus, quibus utanur qui prius asserunt; e quorum numero est Melito, qui scripta reliquit, quibus asserit Deum corporeum esse." in Paulsen, p. 112). Gennadius affirms that Melito was responsible for a sect of Christians who followed him in the belief that the bodies of humans are made in the image of God.

Origen also noted that Celsus argued at length against his [Celsus] understanding of the Christian belief that God is corporeal by nature and has a body to be in human form. (Paulsen, p. 113).

[johnny]

urroner,

Johnny, sorry, I don't have much time, so I went to Lord Kerry's site and pulled this down.

Maybe when you have time you could address the words of Clement of Alexandria (see below) sense Kerry does not.

Clement of Alexandria: Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]

"The first substance is everything which subsists by itself, as a stone is called a substance. The second is a substance capable of increase, as a plant grows and decays. The third is animated and sentient substance, as animal, horse. The fourth is animate, sentient, rational substance, as man. Wherefore each one of us is made as consisting of all, having an immaterial soul and a mind, which is the image of God" (Fragment from On Providence [A.D. 200]). ... "Being is in God. God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced" (ibid.). ... "What is God? â??God,â?? as the Lord says, â??is a spirit.â?? Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself" (ibid.). ... "No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form"

[urroner]

A quick hit and run since I really have to go. If God is "without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form," does God exist in Hell?

If God doesn't exist in someplace, then there are dimensions and limits and He has form.

[johnny]

urroner,

A quick hit and run since I really have to go. If God is "without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form," does God exist in Hell?

What do you mean by "exist", Eph 4 says,

Eph 4

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

If God doesn't exist in someplace, then there are dimensions and limits and He has form.

What do you mean by "someplace", 1Kings 8 and Jeremiah 23 says

1Kings 8

[27] But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Jeremiah 23

[23] Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?

[24] Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

[urroner]

If God is everywhere, does that include Hell?

Is there a place that God isn't? If there is, then God has form and dimension,.

[johnny]

urroner,

If God is everywhere, does that include Hell?

Again I ask what you mean by "exist" ... what do you mean by "is"?

Is there a place that God isn't? If there is, then God has form and dimension,.

God transcends.

[urroner]

In your quote of Clement, he said

Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth.

What did he mean by "existence?" Does God have an "existence?" If God has an exitence, then He must exits.

If God exists, then He must be in at least one place, even if that place is everywhere or in one small area.

I think that you need to define what you believe "existence" means when it relates to God since you used the quote as supporting your beliefs. For me, "exist" simply means "to be real."

[johnny]

COLOR=blue]urroner,

If God has an exitence, then He must exits.

God has existence. He is "without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form"

If God exists, then He must be in at least one place, even if that place is everywhere or in one small area.

I believe it is better to define "transcends" since their is scriptural support for it. Webster defines ""transcend" as "to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)" which is consistent with Eph 4 which reveals

Eph 4

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

For me, "exist" simply means "to be real."

Something can be "real" and can be without form and can be "above all, and through all, and in you all"?