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From The "theophilus" Blog...


David Waltz

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The following is from the blog post, â??A Biblical Response to the Teachings of Zane Hodges,Joseph Dillow, and the Grace Evangelical Society(Called the "Free Grace" Movement)â?

Notice also that the term "born of God" is used to describe both those who pass the doctrinal test ("Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ"--1 John 5:1) as well as those who pass the behavioral test ("whoever loves"--1 John 4:7). Clearly, John is describing the same person; and since all believers must pass the doctrinal test of 5:1, he must have all believers in view in 4:7 as well. Being "born of God" is another term for being a believer. (http://phils-page.blogspot.com/)

Question: do not faithful Mormons pass both â??testsâ? as outlined above?

Grace and peace,

David

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David Waltz,

believes that Jesus is the Christ

Clearly Mormons believe in a different Christ than who is revealed in the Bible.

Mormons believe the Son was born of a heavenly Father and a heavenly mother prior to the incarnation.

Apostolic Christians believe the Son was the Word of God, begotten of the Father, prior to the incarnation.

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The following is from the blog post, â??A Biblical Response to the Teachings of Zane Hodges,Joseph Dillow, and the Grace Evangelical Society(Called the "Free Grace" Movement)â?

Question: do not faithful Mormons pass both â??testsâ? as outlined above?

David,

Perhaps you didn't read the blog article sufficiently to realize that you are taking it out of context. It describes a Protestant "in-house" debate between "free gracers" (those who believe one can accept Jesus as Saviour without having to accept Him as Lord), and those who believe in "Lordship" (who believe that accepting Christ as Saviour includes accepting Him as Lord). Since it is "internal" to Protestants, there is much not mentioned (since both sides agree about the Trinity, the nature of God, etc.). If the author had intended to use that piece in the context of LDS discussion, I'm quite sure he would have been more explicit about those things which separated LDS belief from mainstream, something he did not need to do in the context he was writing in.

I'm sure there is a great deal of content in the blog article that LDS would immediately reject, so I wonder at the usefulness of asking whether LDS would agree with one tiny paragraph ripped out of the entire article.

It is an important issue, however, and I thank you for bringing it to the attention of others. For the irony of it all is that LDS repeatedly criticize "EV Christians" for the idea of "easy believism", which is essentially the "Free gracers" view, those who deny the accepting of the Lordship of Christ, while the majority of EV's here (Rock, Rhino, myself, CKSalmon, Revelation, etc.) believe in the "Lorship" position.

Theophilus

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David Waltz,

Clearly Mormons believe in a different Christ than who is revealed in the Bible.

Mormons believe the Son was born of a heavenly Father and a heavenly mother prior to the incarnation.

Apostolic Christians believe the Son was the Word of God, begotten of the Father, prior to the incarnation.

LDS believe that Christ was the "word " before he became flesh. As to Christ being born of a Father and Mother, that is not really understood in actually understood. Some people think that the Father and Mother had some sort of physical act to make spirit children but I completely disagree with that position. I believe that since the Father and Mother both have resurrected bodies and things reproduce after their own kind, they would not be having spirit "babies". I believe its more metaphorical in how Christ and us where born of a Father and Mother before all of our "incarnations".

More to the issue. If the LDS Jesus is a "differnet" Jesus than those that is revealed in the Bible then the Bible Jesus is not the following since the LDS Jesus is the Savior, Redeemer, Son of God, born of a virgin, the creator of the universe, the only name where man can be saved, died on a cross, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and the only one begotten of the Father. Many other things can be included.

So I guess your Jesus that you believe is NOT Savior Redeemer, Son of God, born of a virgin, the creator of the universe, the only name where man can be saved, died on a cross, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and the only one begotten of the Father.

So my question to you is WHO IS YOUR JESUS since the Jesus you believe in is not the Jesus the LDS believe in.

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freakin a man,

LDS believe that Christ was the "word " before he became flesh.

Could you describe what you mean by the "word" ... is it like an angel or is it like the Logo's or is it like the Word of God or is it like ...?

I believe its more metaphorical in how Christ and us where born of a Father and Mother before all of our "incarnations".

I don't believe the Son was born of a heavenly mother prior to the incarnation. I believe "the Word" was begotten of the Father prior to the incarnation.

So my question to you is WHO IS YOUR JESUS since the Jesus you believe in is not the Jesus the LDS believe in.

The Jesus I in believe in was God's "Word" prior to the incarnation. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Before the incarnation, the Son existed as the Word before all ages.

John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1John 1

[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

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freakin a man,

Could you describe what you mean by the "word" ... is it like an angel or is it like the Logo's or is it like the Word of God or is it like ...?

I don't believe the Son was born of a heavenly mother prior to the incarnation. I believe "the Word" was begotten of the Father prior to the incarnation.

The Jesus I in believe in was God's "Word" prior to the incarnation. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Before the incarnation, the Son existed as the Word before all ages.

John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1John 1

[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

I agree with the John passages. I guess the word can be a lot of things just as Christ is a lot of things.

"...this is rather to be understood of Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word, that Angel of whom God spake to Moses, (Exod. xiii. 20.) Whose voice Israel was to obey. He is called Jehovah, Exod. xiii. 21: xiv. 21, 24. He is the Angel of the covenant, God's Messenger to the world, Mal. iii.1. He is the Angel of God's face, for his is the express Image of his person; and the glory of God shines in the face of Christ. He that was to work out the eternal salvation, as an earnest of that, wrought out the temporal salvation that were typical of it." (Rev. Matthew Henry, An Exposition of the Old and New Testament (London: Frederick Westley and A. H. Davis, 1836), II p. 865)

"...He is the messenger of the covenant; or the Angel of the covenant, that blessed One that was sent from heaven to negotiate a peace and settle a correspondence, between God and man. He is the Angel, the Arch-angel, the Lord of the angels, who received commission from the Father to bring man home to God by a covenant of grace, who had revolted from him by the violation of the covenant of innocence. Christ is the Angel of this covenant, by whose mediation it is brought about and established, as God's covenant with Israel was made by the disposition of angels. Acts vii. 53, Gal. iii. 19. (Rev. Matthew Henry, An Exposition of the Old and New Testament (London: Frederick Westley and A. H. Davis, 1836), II p. 1512)

You will note that its perfectly fine to call Jesus an angel. Of course Christ is more than just an angel.

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freakin a man,

I agree with the John passages. I guess the word can be a lot of things just as Christ is a lot of things.

It appears you disagree with the Early Church writers

"Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" (Ignatius of Antioch: Letter to the Magnesians 6â??8 [A.D. 110] emphasis added).

Tertullian

"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

Athenagoras

The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by "the Son," I will tell you briefly: He is the first-begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things. (Plea for the Christians 10:2â??4 [A.D. 177])

Hippolytus

The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the Being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God. (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228])

Tertullian, The Apology,21 (A.D. 197),in ANF,III:34-35

"We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos--that is, the Word and Reason--as the Creator of the universe...And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun--there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence--in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united."

this is rather to be understood of Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word, that Angel of whom God spake to Moses, (Exod. xiii. 20.)

How can "the Word" be an Angel ... an angel is a creature created by God?

Christ is the Angel of this covenant,

How can the Son be an angel ... an angel is created ... the Son is the Word which is eternal?

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Johny wrote:

Clearly Mormons believe in a different Christ than who is revealed in the Bible.

Mormons believe the Son was born of a heavenly Father and a heavenly mother prior to the incarnation.

Apostolic Christians believe the Son was the Word of God, begotten of the Father, prior to the incarnation.

This is why discussion with EVs can be such a bore.

But how about this Johny boy:

D&C 93:3-19

3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are oneâ??

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my dtabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.

6 And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of cohnâ??s record is hereafter to be revealed.

7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was;

8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvationâ??

9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, aohn, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and aknow what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

Does this pass your little test. Before you go spouting what LDS believe why don't you dig through their scripture a bit first and maybe you will get it a more clearly next time because you blew this time.

Teancum

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Teancum,

I do not care. You dodged my question. CLEARLY you cannot deal with our scripture. Do so or be silent.

I dwelt with your scriptures ... you were silent in that you did not quote verse D&C 93:21 which reveals that The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ.

The LDS church teaches and LDS scriptures reveal "the Word" is a spirit born of heavenly parents which is very different than what the Bible and the Early Church writers reveal.

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You will note that its perfectly fine to call Jesus an angel. Of course Christ is more than just an angel.

One wonders what you understand with regard to the term "angel."

An "angel" (Hebrew, מלאך; Greek, ἄγγελος) is a messenger. Certainly, Christ fulfills that role. Etymologically, though, neither the notion of materiality nor the notion of createdness inheres in either the Hebrew or Greek word.

You seem to assume that an angel is necessarily a created being. This won't hold logically.

(1) All entities described as angels are created beings

(2) Christ is an angel

Therefore,

(3) Christ is a created being

One need only deny (1) to hold that Christ is both an angel (in the sense of a messenger) and a non-created being.

Best.

CKS

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cksalmon,

You seem to assume that an angel is necessarily a created being. This won't hold logically.

Logically scriptures reveal that angels are created beings.

Psalm 148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

(3) Christ is a created being

Is Christ a created being like the angel Satan?

The LDS church teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

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freakin a man,

It appears you disagree with the Early Church writers

How can "the Word" be an Angel ... an angel is a creature created by God?

How can the Son be an angel ... an angel is created ... the Son is the Word which is eternal?

An angel is simply a messenger or a heavenly type being. Not a species of being. So there is no problem with calling Jesus or even God the Father both Gods and Angels. Justin Martyr for example called Jesus both "another God and an angel" I will get the quote when I have time. Angels are created in the same way that God creates prophets and apostles. He takes a pre-existing being and places them in that office or position. It is only in that sense that angels are created. They are not beings created from nothing in the LDS view.

So yes Jesus is the Son of God, eternal, and an angel as well. No problem. Its not that Jesus is either a God or an angel. He can be both.

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cksalmon,

Logically scriptures reveal that angels are created beings.

Psalm 148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

Is Christ a created being like the angel Satan?

The LDS church teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

Johnnyâ??

I have to disagree somewhat here. My point was that the notion of createdness does not inhere etymologically in either the Hebrew or Greek word rendered in English as "angel." I do agree with you, however, that createdness typically accords with its use. Though I don't think the Bible logically demonstrates this.

Even if one could justify the suggestion that Jesus is in some sense an angel (i.e., a messenger), this would not be to prove that Jesus is thereby a created being.

That was the thrust of my response.

Best to you.

CKS

An angel is simply a messenger or a heavenly type being. Not a species of being. So there is no problem with calling Jesus or even God the Father both Gods and Angels. Justin Martyr for example called Jesus both "another God and an angel" I will get the quote when I have time. Angels are created in the same way that God creates prophets and apostles. He takes a pre-existing being and places them in that office or position. It is only in that sense that angels are created. They are not beings created from nothing in the LDS view.

So yes Jesus is the Son of God, eternal, and an angel as well. No problem. Its not that Jesus is either a God or an angel. He can be both.

But you're assuming, again, that an entity described as a messenger is necessarily created.

Also, you write that an angel "is simply a messenger or a heavenly type being. Not a species of being."

If an angel is necessarily a heavenly type being, then obviously it is a species of being. So, it appears you've affirmed what you immediately thereafter deny.

Best.

CKS

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freakin a man,

An angel is simply a messenger or a heavenly type being.

Do you believe Jesus is simply a created being like the angel Satan?

The Bible reveals that the Son was not a created being like the angel Satan.

It is only in that sense that angels are created. They are not beings created from nothing in the LDS view.

Psalm 148 reveals that the Lord commanded and they were created ... the Bible reveals that angels do not have a heavenly mother like the LDS church teaches.

Psalm 148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

So yes Jesus is the Son of God, eternal, and an angel as well.

The Son is also the Word of God prior to his incarnation. Athenagoras said the Son was not produced. The Son did not have a heavenly mother like the LDS church teaches.

Athenagoras

The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by "the Son," I will tell you briefly: He is the first-begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things. (Plea for the Christians 10:2â??4 [A.D. 177])

Its not that Jesus is either a God or an angel. He can be both.

The Son was both God and "the Word". The Son was not a a created angel like Satan. The Son was not born of a heavenly mother like the LDS church teaches.

John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

cksalmon,

this would not be to prove that Jesus is thereby a created being.

Do you believe Jesus is a created being like the angel Satan?

Was the Son "the Word" or an angel like Satan prior to his incarnation?

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Do you believe Jesus is a created being like the angel Satan?

Was the Son "the Word" or an angel like Satan prior to his incarnation?

I believe Christ is the eternal Word, begotten of the Father eternally, uncreated, and fundamentally unlike any and every created being.

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Johnny,

I wouldn't argue that Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ was the First Born of our Heavenly Parents. That is what I believe. More importantly I believe He was the First Born of our Heavenly Father.

I would appreciate it if you explain how this teaching conflicts what is taught in the Bible (sincerely).

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Johnny may have a point.

If the LDS believe in a Christ that encourages oneness with the Father

If you love me keep my commandments

No one goes to the Father but through the Son.

Then the EV Christ is clearly a different one.

Jesus did it all , you need do nothing

Jesus is the Father (kind of weird the way he thru his voice during the baptism, this is my Son)

and, well you get the point....

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Johnny,

I wouldn't argue that Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ was the First Born of our Heavenly Parents. That is what I believe. More importantly I believe He was the First Born of our Heavenly Father.

I would appreciate it if you explain how this teaching conflicts what is taught in the Bible (sincerely).

Well, very briefly:

1) The Bible doesn't speak of "Heavenly Parents", and IMO such is contradicted by all the "monotheism" Scriptures;

2) Jesus isn't only "first" born, but He is only-begotten.

3) The term translated "firstborn" ("prototokos") had evolved from referring to literal birth-order to meaning "pre-eminent" (cf. Col. 1:18)

4) The Bible doesn't teach that we were "begotten" of God, but that we are creatures (or "creations") of God (cf. Potter and the clay, a repeated metaphor). Humans become "children of God", not through alleged "birthright", but through adoption (Rom. 8:15, Gal. 4:5, Eph. 1:5).

Theophilus

If the LDS believe in a Christ that encourages oneness with the Father

As do EV's.

If you love me keep my commandments

EV's believe that as well. Go figure.

No one goes to the Father but through the Son.

Another EV belief.

Then the EV Christ is clearly a different one.

How do you figure?!

Jesus did it all , you need do nothing

Completely Biblical.

Jesus is the Father (kind of weird the way he thru his voice during the baptism, this is my Son)

EV's don't believe that at all.

While Oneness Pentecostals may believe it (ask alpha),

"Jesus is the Father" is considered a heresy by:

- Catholics;

- Baptists;

- Anglicans;

- Episcopalians;

- Lutherans;

- Methodists;

- Calvinists;

- Evangelicals.

Of course, this has already been explained on the FAIRboards many times... :P

and, well you get the point....

Only that you don't know what "EV's" believe.

Theophilus

You are being needlessly rude to other posters. Stop! -mods

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If it is completely biblical that Jesus did it all and I don't need to to anything than I truely don't need to do anything or nothing then don't even need to believe that God exists to be saved. As that would be me having to do something? Nothing means nothing. To believe is something.

So I imagine that you don't believe that I am saved. So what do I have to DO to be saved? Do I have to do something or do nothing. If nothing, am I not already saved. If I have to do something, then I guess my salvation is someone dependent on what I do.

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It would appear that our EV brethren don't believe in the "same" Jesus, so one or more of them

must not be Christian. How can we poor deluded Mormons ever hope to know which one to

believe?

Bernard

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