Geography in the eyes of ancient cultures

[poulsenll]

Definitions:

Geocentic: Related to the fixed shape and orientation of the earth. Defined in terms of compass points, GPS instruments, latitudes and longtitudes. Allows one to locate ones position with respect to the rest of the physical world.

Anthrocentric: Based on the relationship between ones current position and visible surrounding features such as the sun, stars and significant geograpic features. It is concerned more with where I am rather than where everything else is.

In our culture, when some one says "east", we understand it to mean that direction determined by a compass or that area on a map to the east of our location on said map. The cultural basis includes maps, surveys and fixed orientation of geographic features.

Ancient cultures thought of east as "where the sun rises" and although aware of it, were unconcerned with the fact that the point where it rises moves during the course of the year. The cultural basis is based on ones orientation with respect to the suns position at sunrise irrespective of where it will rise tomorrow or even next month.

When we interpret directions in ancient documents such as the Book of Mormon, this difference should be understood and applied to our interpretation of geographical applications of directional terms. For example in Hel 4:7 we have the English phrase "from the west sea , even unto the east". Geocentically, we immediately insert another sea after the word east. This is because of our inclination to think of the directional terms as modifying the word sea. If we translate this to the ancient concept , we get "From where the sun sets in the sea, even unto where the sun rises". Here we see that the word sea is actually a modifier of the word west and therefore, there is no inclination to add the same modifier to the location of the rising sun.

This more limited interpretaion of the phrase was suggested by Richard Hauck although he did not give any cultural reasons for his choice but used it because it fit better with his geographical model.

This phrase is also found in Alma 22:32. Because of our geocentric tendency to think that these phrases describe a distance between two seas, we overlook the fact that they are simply descriptions of defense lines on the borders of two different lands and their anthrocentric need to know how their forces were located for defense.

Larry P

[SlackTime]

Several places in the Book of Mormon they refer to themselves as among those "scattered to the isles of the sea". Is this because the recognized that they weren't in the same land as Jerusalem? Because it seems hard to equate mesoamerica as an island. Is there a rational behind this in Anthrocentric geography?

-SlackTime

[poulsenll]

Several places in the Book of Mormon they refer to themselves as among those "scattered to the isles of the sea".

[Pahoran]

Several places in the Book of Mormon they refer to themselves as among those "scattered to the isles of the sea".  Is this because the recognized that they weren't in the same land as Jerusalem?  Because it seems hard to equate mesoamerica as an island.  Is there a rational behind this in Anthrocentric geography?

-SlackTime

I understand the expression "isle of the sea" to denote the fact that they had to cross the sea to get there.

Larry might well be on to something with his anthrocentric geography.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Zakuska]

A possilbe old world connection... I heard Great Brittian refered to as possilby one of these "Isles of the sea" refered to in both the Bible and the BOM.

[Moksha]

The geography of Atlantis has always been puzzling. I think it probably existed as oral tradition as a place much before Homer wrote of it. Probably like the Great Flood story that found its way into the Bible. It could have been a village in the Black Sea area that was inundated when that area was flooded creating the Black Sea. This is also a potential source of the Great Flood story. Perhaps they arose from the same event but altered by differing cultures.

[poulsenll]

The geography of Atlantis has always been puzzling.  I think it probably existed as oral tradition as a place much before Homer wrote of it.  Probably like the Great Flood story that found its way into the Bible.  It could have been a village in the Black Sea area that was inundated when that area was flooded creating the Black Sea.  This is also a potential source of the Great Flood story. Perhaps they arose from the same event but altered by differing cultures.

Columbus was also interested in the Atlantis story. He took it as proof that there were islands located west of the Pillars of Hercules. He, as well as the Portugueze, had explored the ocean within easy sailing distance of the European and African coasts and Columbus wanted to explore further out but lacked funds and ships to do so. His appeal to the queen, based on access to Cathay by sailing west, was designed to avoid the queens opposition to funding voyages limited to exploration. The fact that the atl root in the words atlantic, atlas and athlete also occur in the

Nahuatl language has suggested to some that the story of atlantis may have originated in some earlier contact betwen Europe and the Americas.

But that is a topic for another thread.

Larry P

[katherine the great]

The geography of Atlantis has always been puzzling. I think it probably existed as oral tradition as a place much before Homer wrote of it. Probably like the Great Flood story that found its way into the Bible. It could have been a village in the Black Sea area that was inundated when that area was flooded creating the Black Sea. This is also a potential source of the Great Flood story. Perhaps they arose from the same event but altered by differing cultures.

In my mind Atlantis was greatly exaggerated, but it was a real place and it was Santorini Greece.

[poulsenll]

Larry might well be on to something with his anthrocentric geography.

For more examples of the differences between ancient and modern concepts of geography, here is a short essay I published on another site.

http://www.mormonsites.org/page10.html

and for how this applies to Book of Mormon geography see

http://www.poulsenll.org/bom/bomdirections.html

Larry P

[charity]

Very interesting links. Thank you.

[Brant Gardner]

Slack Time:

Several places in the Book of Mormon they refer to themselves as among those "scattered to the isles of the sea".

As I remember, this phrase is pretty limited in usage. I remember it strongly for Nephi and perhaps Jacob. I believe that it doesn't persist. It is a strong part of Nephi's theology, probably related to Isaiah and to the fact of their ocean voyage. That connection appears to have faded over time.

Later indications aren't to islands, but there is one to four surrounding seas. I think that one is a cultural idea rather than a firm geographic description. The Aztecs believed their world to be surrounded by water. Tenochtitlan was, but they certainly knew of more than their island - they simply extended the concept to the whole world. I think something like that occurred among the Nephites - since it was close to the geographic truth and made such good "sense."

[poulsenll]

Later indications aren't to islands, but there is one to four surrounding seas. I think that one is a cultural idea rather than a firm geographic description. The Aztecs believed their world to be surrounded by water. Tenochtitlan was, but they certainly knew of more than their island - they simply extended the concept to the whole world. I think something like that occurred among the Nephites - since it was close to the geographic truth and made such good "sense."

Anthrocentricly, the Nephites would have thought of themselves and the capital parts of the lands, as located at the center of all the lands. Geographically, they divided the land into quarters, not necessarily of the same size. In the geographic model which places Zarahemla at Santa Rosa on the Grijalva river, these four quarters each included a portion of the surrounding seas. Although, the ones in the western quarter and the southern quarter were both in the Pacific ocean, I dont believe the Nephites thought of them as seperate seas. However, poetically(culture), they would still think of there being seas to the north, the south, the east and the west.

[Moksha]

The geography of Atlantis has always been puzzling.  I think it probably existed as oral tradition as a place much before Homer wrote of it.  Probably like the Great Flood story that found its way into the Bible.  It could have been a village in the Black Sea area that was inundated when that area was flooded creating the Black Sea.  This is also a potential source of the Great Flood story. Perhaps they arose from the same event but altered by differing cultures.

In my mind Atlantis was greatly exaggerated, but it was a real place and it was Santorini Greece.

So, are you saying that the Minoan Cities were probably Homer's Atlantis?

[Warship]

Poulsenll,

The Yucatan peninsula is "nearly surrounded by water".

I remember reading something about the north and south sea to mean the left and right sea......... or the same thing as the West and East sea?

The North and South seas seems like a problem for LGT and is not mentioned much. The above was the best explanation I had heard.

Do you know anything about the north and south sea and how it might apply in the Anthrocentric geography model?

[poulsenll]

Poulsenll,

Do you know anything about the north and south sea and how it might apply in the Anthrocentric geography model?

Warship

In the notes page of my website there is a section on seas about halfway down from the beginning.

http://www.poulsenll.org/bom/index.html

With reference to the north sea, there is only one verse in the BoM that mentions the north sea(Hel 3:, however there are numerous references to a sea without a directional qualifier. The mouth of the river Sidon(Grijalva) is located in this sea which is located to the north because the river Sidon runs to the north after leaving the land of Zarahemla. There is no directional term associated with this sea simply because there is no direct interaction between it and the sun. That is the sun neither rises nor sets in the north. Remember that in Antrocentric geography, there is no attemt to describe geographic features in order to locate them on a map, they are only described relative to how they affect the individual and to phenomina of importance to that individual. There are numerous other referrals to a sea with no directional term in the BoM. All of these appear to refer to the north sea.

With reference to the south sea, Hel 3:8 also mentions the south sea. In addition Alma 53:8 and Alma 53:22 may give information about the south sea.

Alma 53: 8

And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites, on the west sea, south, while in the absence of Moroni on account of some intrigue amongst the Nephites, which caused dissensions amongst them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, yea, insomuch that they had obtained possession of a number of their cities in that part of the land.

Alma 53: 22

And now it came to pass that Helaman did march at the head of his two thousand stripling soldiers, to the support of the people in the borders of the land on the south by the west sea.

In both of these verses both west and south are used in the discription of the location. This may be indicative that the Nephites recognized that the west sea extended into the southern quarter and was not a seperate sea as were the sea to the north and the east sea.

Larry P

[SlackTime]

Slack Time:

Several places in the Book of Mormon they refer to themselves as among those "scattered to the isles of the sea".

As I remember, this phrase is pretty limited in usage. I remember it strongly for Nephi and perhaps Jacob. I believe that it doesn't persist. It is a strong part of Nephi's theology, probably related to Isaiah and to the fact of their ocean voyage. That connection appears to have faded over time.

Later indications aren't to islands, but there is one to four surrounding seas. I think that one is a cultural idea rather than a firm geographic description. The Aztecs believed their world to be surrounded by water. Tenochtitlan was, but they certainly knew of more than their island - they simply extended the concept to the whole world. I think something like that occurred among the Nephites - since it was close to the geographic truth and made such good "sense."

Thanks Brant,

In the question about seas (north, south, east, west) I recall reading in "The Lost Language of Symbolism" by Alonzo L. Gaskill that cardinal directions had other (religious) symbolism attached to them. Is there any chance that if a sea (say the east sea) was known to curl around to the south, that a speaker would choose south sea in an effort to align other symbology to the discussion? Similar to what I might say about wind. Maybe a wind is from the NW but because it is cold and frigid I say that the North wind is blowing in because of the association of that with the onset of winter. Probably a bad analogy, but I hope you get where I'm going.

-SlackTime

[dangermom]

So, are you saying that the Minoan Cities were probably Homer's Atlantis?

Where does Homer mention Atlantis? I don't recall that. Are you thinking of Plato?

[Moksha]

So, are you saying that the Minoan Cities were probably Homer's Atlantis?

Where does Homer mention Atlantis? I don't recall that. Are you thinking of Plato?

"Homer and Hesiod are both thought to refer to Atlantis in their descriptions of the earthly paradise for dead heroes which lay far to the west as well as the Garden of the Hesperides and its golden apples. Avalon from Arthurian legend is thought to be a reflection of this as well, Avalon being the Celtic word for apple."

"The true location of Atlantis is in the mind," (Fredericks 99). In the intangible reaches of the human psyche is where the story holds the most sway. While, "almost every culture contains a myth, story, or legend of the flood-related disappearance of a corrupt civilization," (Ellis 4) the Atlantean legend is special somehow. Humanity has kept the story alive through the centuries because it fills a need. It is an account of incredible power and riches, of selfishness and vengeance, of divinity, disaster and mystery. These are the elements which make up any good story."

- from Casey S. Fredericks

Of the last paragraph, if you substitute the Book of Mormom lands for the word Atlantis, you come up with a very interesting thought.

Yes, I must have been thinking of Plato.

[katherine the great]

So, are you saying that the Minoan Cities were probably Homer's Atlantis?

Yes. (Well, Plato's anyway.) Here's an interesting link:

http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/atlantis.htm

[poulsenll]

Very interesting links.  Thank you.

Charity

You are very welcome. Come visit any time. If I get enough activity on the site, I may even add some new material I have in storage.

Larry P

[Warship]

Thanks Larry,

I appreciate it.

And thanks for the post at Alma authorship. I think i have seen that chronology before. It definitely helped me see that it was possible for Mormon to have the time to narrate and that his time preaching might account for style adjustments in his writing as he would have become more adept at public speaking.

But I may still pull some things out of my hat over there when I get some free time to write a real post.

[SlackTime]

I'm still hoping for some scholorly comments on the possibility of symbolic usage of cardinal directions in the naming of seas and such.

-SlackTime

[charity]

Larry, I hope to see more. I am always interested in these evidences of the culture of the Book of Mormon lands. I think it is these types of things which are adding up, bit by bit, to actually prove the Book of Mormon. Not that we need the proof. But it is nice that it is there.

[why me]

Very interesting links.  Thank you.

Charity

You are very welcome. Come visit any time. If I get enough activity on the site, I may even add some new material I have in storage.

Larry P

I just want to say that I am glad that you are posting at FAIR. We need people like you who have knowledge and have done some research to enforce that knowledge.

Don't go away anytime soon!

Thanks for the links!

[Brant Gardner]

SlackTime:

I'm still hoping for some scholorly comments on the possibility of symbolic usage of cardinal directions in the naming of seas and such.

It would be consistent with what I have seen in other cultures/places. People conceptualize the greater world outside of their experience and tend to regularize it. Most ancient people didn't travel very far, so reality was less "real" that the conceptual universe created to help them understand their world. Directions were important in most cultures, though defined very differently from people to people.

It is a forgivable hubris that we think that everyone must have meant what we mean when we speak of the cardinal directions.