Marriage to virgins

[AnchoredinChrist]

On 10/18/2026 at 7:31 PM, webbles said:

There is an 1844 conference

Do you mean 1882? Or 1884?

On 10/18/2026 at 7:31 PM, webbles said:

Peder's story is 1843

Do you mean 1883?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 10/17/2026 at 5:55 PM, Pyreaux said:

Did Section 132 then make plural marriage mandatory for everyone who heard it? No, it didn't. Even under Brigham Young, the majority of active Latter-day Saints were monogamous, and could never be polygamists if they wanted to. If plural marriage were the sole requirement to enter exaltation, the overwhelming majority of Saints, including bishops, stake leaders, and faithful members and every member not in the US would have been excluded.

The quotes from Brigham Young in 1873 are historical footnotes, they don't define the universal doctrine of the Church, and ignores both the specific historical context of the 1870s and subsequent clarification by Church leaders.

Brigham was not talking to those who simply lived faithful monogamous lives because they were never called to take additional wives. Men were typically called and vetted by local bishops or First Presidency leaders who deliberately targeted men of means who were financially, socially, and spiritually stable enough to provide housing, food, and protection for additional families, especially single immigrant women, widows, and young women who lacked financial support on the frontier.

These types of posts always trigger me. So I have polygamous ancestors everywhere in my family tree. I found out recently on this board that Lorena Washburn (my gg-grandma) was featured extensively in church publications. She wrote an autobiography. Lorena was one of 8 children born to a second wife. She wrote:

Quote

We were taught in those days that there was no way to get to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom, only by plural marriage.

Further she spoke of the sacrifice entailed:

Quote

I believed Bent Larsen to be a thoroughly religious, straightforward and splendid man, and though it was a hard thing to do and it required so much sacrifice on my part, yet I finally consented after Aunt Julia said she would feel worse if I did not marry him than if I did.

Her son BF Larson (who was well educated and led the fine arts school at BYU) later recalled:

Quote

The Law of Celestial Marriage.

With Church approval, Father had married a plural wife. He married my mother, Lorena Eugenia Washburn, in the Saint George Temple February 24,1880. Mother has told me many times that Father was esteemed by her and others as one of the very finest young men in Monroe.

At that time, the Church emphasized the fact that plural marriage was the Law of Celestial Marriage and that abiding by this law was the only way of securing entrance into the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom. The general authorities of the church were generally living this law.

Three of the four girls in Lorena's family became plural wifes. None of the boys did. This just highlights the impossibility of the commandment. There was certainly no shortage of men trying though to indicate there was some high bar you had to pass. Lorena records being courted by countless married individuals started as young as six or eight:

Quote

Our bishop, George's father, was a jolly man and a great tease. He usually wore boots, with one trouser leg inside the boot and one outside. He always had a twinkle in his eyes. He was medium height, dark complexioned, not overly large, yet a bit inclined to be fleshy. From the time I was 6 or 8 years old, I always felt like hiding or running in the opposite direction when I saw him, for no matter where I was nor how large the crowd, he would always announce that here is the girl which will be my wife some day. Why, said he on many occasions, when she is old enough to marry, I will just be in the prime of life, and she shall be mine.  

He was president of the Co-op store, and as he did not appear to have much to do, he was often at the store. I did the small shopping for my mother and two married sisters. On one occasion, they sent me to get a supply of nutmegs, which in those days we bought whole, and [we] grated them on a grater. James or Jim Browne, a Scotchman, was store clerk, and one time he gave me wormy nutmegs, quite a package of them. When I got home, Mother and my sisters examined them and told me to take them right back and tell Mr. Browne that they could not use them. I tried to make excuses. I would have preferred taking a whipping, I thought, though I had never had a real one. But my excuses were of no avail back I must go. So, with faltering steps and shaky nerves I went back to the store. And when I got there, to my great dismay, Mr. Browne was busy with 16 other customers and the bishop hopped over the counter and came to me and said, What can I do for my best girl today? If blushing was possible, I must have blushed scarlet, but I knew I must face the music, so I handed him the paper sack of nutmegs and said, "Mother said tell Mr. Browne to never send nutmegs like these to her again because she had no use for them." He looked into the sack, and then said, Jim don't ever send out such things to the people again. To me he said, "You are a brave little girl." And to the crowd he said, "I will marry this girl some day." And with the newly selected nutnegs he gave me a sack of candy, which was a rarity in those days.

<snip>

When I was 15 years old, our Bishop Harris and his wife invited Father and Mother to their home and told them that they had decided if it was possible to get my parents and my consent, they were both very anxious that I should marry the bishop. The family was an extremely fine family and my parents gave their consent. They were to arrange a time when the bishop could meet me. When they told me about it, I told my parents I was too young to marry, and although the bishop was one of the finest men in the land, he was old enough to be my father, and that either of his three fine older sons were much more desirable for a husband than their father. My father said, I am afraid d you will some day be sorry for turning down such a fine man. 

Here are more proposals:

Quote

In less than a week after I went there, three married men came and asked my father if they could marry me. They were fine men, and Father said to each one, Yes, if you can get her consent. They were as follows: Bishop Oldroyd of Glenwood, Hyrum Palmer, and Andrew Hepler who was later our county judge.

Another a week later:

Quote

During the following week there came a letter addressed to Father from Orderville, Utah. I had a sister living there, and supposed it was from her, so I opened it, and to my astonishment it read as follows: Elder Washburn It is long since I fell in love with your daughter Lorena. And if you will give her to me, to be my wife, I will devote all my time and talents to her exaltation and mine. Very humbly yours. I laughed until my sides ached, and said, Is there no place I can go to be shielded from this bombardment? I said to the family, If Mr. _____ should have the privilege of spending all his time working for my exaltation and his, what would become of his present wife and 3 children? 

She writes of more but one of note. A young man she turned down as a first wife later came back to ask her to be her second:

Quote

We commenced a new correspondence, and in August, 1879, he came to Monroe, and after asking my parents' consent, I went home with him to meet his wife. She was very kind to me, but I could plainly understand that she was sorely tried. He was a merchant and had plenty of means, but she took off her shoes and went around barefooted. I thought it was to humiliate her husband.

After visiting with friends for a few days, I asked him one evening to take me to the depot next morning and I would go to Nephi by train and by stage the rest of the way home. He called me to his wife's room that evening, and while we sat there, he told his wife that I was the girl he should have married before he married her. And that he had told her that before he married her. She, dear girl, couldn t remember. Next morning it was a little hard for me to see tears in his eyes all the way to the depot, but I felt that I must not spoil the happiness of his wife. He kissed me as he left me on the train and said, God be with you wherever you go. Remember I can never forget.

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of men approved for a second wife, rather there is a shortage of women available to be plural wives. And just because not everyone makes it to the " into the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom" doesn't mean it wasn't taught and understood at the time that plural marriage was the requirement to gain entry there.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

These types of posts always trigger me. So I have polygamous ancestors everywhere in my family tree. I found out recently on this board that Lorena Washburn (my gg-grandma) was featured extensively in church publications. She wrote an autobiography. Lorena was one of 8 children born to a second wife. She wrote:

Further she spoke of the sacrifice entailed:

Her son BF Larson (who was well educated and led the fine arts school at BYU) later recalled:

Three of the four girls in Lorena's family became plural wifes. None of the boys did. This just highlights the impossibility of the commandment. There was certainly no shortage of men trying though to indicate there was some high bar you had to pass. Lorena records being courted by countless married individuals started as young as six or eight:

Here are more proposals:

Another a week later:

She writes of more but one of note. A young man she turned down as a first wife later came back to ask her to be her second:

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of men approved for a second wife, rather there is a shortage of women available to be plural wives. And just because not everyone makes it to the " into the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom" doesn't mean it wasn't taught and understood at the time that plural marriage was the requirement to gain entry there.

All this, I have polygamy in my heritage and it was something those who were commanded to do it put up with without much enthusiasm and they treated it as a requirement for exaltation. So……frustrating which is bad but not nearly as bad as the way it was turning adult men into sex pests about literal children as SU says. The “it was never mandatory” apologetic requires ignoring the reality of reported experience.

[AnchoredinChrist]

29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

These types of posts always trigger me. So I have polygamous ancestors everywhere in my family tree. I found out recently on this board that Lorena Washburn (my gg-grandma) was featured extensively in church publications. She wrote an autobiography. Lorena was one of 8 children born to a second wife. She wrote:

Further she spoke of the sacrifice entailed:

Her son BF Larson (who was well educated and led the fine arts school at BYU) later recalled:

Three of the four girls in Lorena's family became plural wifes. None of the boys did. This just highlights the impossibility of the commandment. There was certainly no shortage of men trying though to indicate there was some high bar you had to pass. Lorena records being courted by countless married individuals started as young as six or eight:

Here are more proposals:

Another a week later:

She writes of more but one of note. A young man she turned down as a first wife later came back to ask her to be her second:

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of men approved for a second wife, rather there is a shortage of women available to be plural wives. And just because not everyone makes it to the " into the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom" doesn't mean it wasn't taught and understood at the time that plural marriage was the requirement to gain entry there.

What a story, so many men clamoring for her when she was fifteen years old, and she seems to be especially perceptive as she's rebuffing them -- to think that as a fifteen year old girl she wasn't intimidated by all of these men who are so much older than her. What is the name of her autobiography?

[AnchoredinChrist]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All this, I have polygamy in my heritage and it was something those who were commanded to do it put up with without much enthusiasm and they treated it as a requirement for exaltation. So……frustrating which is bad but not nearly as bad as the way it was turning adult men into sex pests about literal children as SU says. The “it was never mandatory” apologetic requires ignoring the reality of reported experience.

I found out just today that Brigham Young's youngest wife was 13, when he was 43 -- beginning at 8:35,

[SeekingUnderstanding]

47 minutes ago, AnchoredinChrist said:

What a story, so many men clamoring for her when she was fifteen years old, and she seems to be especially perceptive as she's rebuffing them -- to think that as a fifteen year old girl she wasn't intimidated by all of these men who are so much older than her. What is the name of her autobiography?

I received my copy from family. Do you have a familysearch account? https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/memories/KW8P-5HR search for autobiography

Edited 4 hours ago by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All this, I have polygamy in my heritage and it was something those who were commanded to do it put up with without much enthusiasm and they treated it as a requirement for exaltation. So……frustrating which is bad but not nearly as bad as the way it was turning adult men into sex pests about literal children as SU says. The “it was never mandatory” apologetic requires ignoring the reality of reported experience.

In order to make things neat and tidy we diminish their sacrifice. BF Larsen on his mother Lorena said:

Quote

Farmers generally had very little or no cash money. At the stores people traded eggs, butter, and grain for necessities which they could not produce. At Mother's home, from the very beginning, we had very little to trade. Our small flock of chickens had usually scratched for themselves most of the time. With one and sometimes two cows it was often difficult to supply nine growing children with much-needed milk and butter. At times, when our cow was dry, we borrowed an unbroken range cow for a period. Probably no one, except some of Mother's children, can ever know of her fatigue, her heartaches, and ofttimes her humiliation with poverty and with the feeling of aloneness in the struggle to provide for her family and to secure the wherewith to make her dreams come true.

(emphasis added by me)

Edited 4 hours ago by SeekingUnderstanding

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

These types of posts always trigger me. So I have polygamous ancestors everywhere in my family tree. I found out recently on this board that Lorena Washburn (my gg-grandma) was featured extensively in church publications. She wrote an autobiography. Lorena was one of 8 children born to a second wife. She wrote:

Further she spoke of the sacrifice entailed:

Her son BF Larson (who was well educated and led the fine arts school at BYU) later recalled:

Three of the four girls in Lorena's family became plural wifes. None of the boys did. This just highlights the impossibility of the commandment. There was certainly no shortage of men trying though to indicate there was some high bar you had to pass. Lorena records being courted by countless married individuals started as young as six or eight:

Here are more proposals:

Another a week later:

She writes of more but one of note. A young man she turned down as a first wife later came back to ask her to be her second:

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of men approved for a second wife, rather there is a shortage of women available to be plural wives. And just because not everyone makes it to the " into the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom" doesn't mean it wasn't taught and understood at the time that plural marriage was the requirement to gain entry there.

Lorena wrote, "We were taught in those days that there was no way to get to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom, only by plural marriage."

Sure, small southern Utah towns during the 1870s and 1880s (St. George, Monroe, Orderville), leaders heavily emphasized plural marriage as the pinnacle of devotion, local speakers simplified the message down, and many Saints may have believed plural marriage was necessary for the highest exaltation, because that was the dominant local cultural narrative preached from the rural pulpits.

However, official clarifications by Church, even Brigham Young himself, Joseph F. Smith and Wilford Woodruff, at that time affirmed that faithful monogamous couples inherit exaltation. Apostle John Holman argued that no one could achieve Celestial glory without taking multiple wives and Brigham Young directly corrected him and shut the debate down (Recorded in Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Sept 25, 1869). Brigham did feel it was sin to entertain feelings against the doctrine, meaning rebellion against God's revelations, or refusing a priesthood calling for selfish reasons. A monogamous man who lived faithfully and accepted the restoration, including the revelation "in his heart" was completely acceptable, a man who rejected the revelation or refused an assignment out of rebellion was the one under condemnation.

The Discourse by Joseph F. Smith July 1878, "We are not under the necessity of practicing polygamy because God gave laws and commandments for its observance and regulation in ancient times..."  

Let's not conflate what local Utah Saints felt and understood in 1880 with either Section 132 and what 1880 official doctrine of the Church actually required.

Lorena Washburn Larsen’s autobiography is an incredible historical document. Lorena’s accounts do actually demonstrate the historical dynamics I have been outlining. Lorena repeatedly turned down proposals, and her father supported her right to do so. Lorena didn't seem obligated into sealings. The men proposing to Lorena were prominent local figures, a bishop, a Co-op store president, a merchant who had plenty of means, and a future county judge. This fits the precise pattern of established, financially stable men who weren't necessarily proposing spontaneously, someone was suggesting specific women to men in the ward whom they believed could provide for them.