The Seed of Abraham - the people of God whom He foreknew

[InCognitus]

On 6/16/2026 at 9:32 AM, theplains said:

When does the fulness of the Gentiles occur?

We’ve already been through all of that.  I think you already know the answer. 

The fulness of the Gentiles “comes in” (Romans 11:25, which is tied to the language of Genesis 48:19) when the descendants of Joseph begin to bring about the gathering of Israel a “second time” to worship the Lord, and it is “fulfilled” right when Jesus said it would in Luke 21:24, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

[theplains]

On 6/26/2026 at 2:01 PM, Pyreaux said:

One more time, to argue that they didn't hold the Melchizedek priesthood just because they didn't used the title is pure semantics. When New Testament Christians used terms like 'Royal Priesthood' and 'Kings and Priests,' they were directly invoking the King-Priests of ancient times.

"When persons have proved themselves faithful in all things required by the Lord, it is their 
privilege to receive covenants and obligations that will enable them to be heirs of God as members 
of the Church of the Firstborn. They are "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" and are those 
"into whose hands the Father has given all things" (D&C 76:51-55). They will be priests and 
priestesses, kings and queens, receiving the Father's glory, having the fulness of knowledge, 
wisdom, power, and dominion (D&C 76:56-62; cf. 107:19). (The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Church of
the Firstborn).

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

"When persons have proved themselves faithful in all things required by the Lord, it is their 
privilege to receive covenants and obligations that will enable them to be heirs of God as members 
of the Church of the Firstborn. They are "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" and are those 
"into whose hands the Father has given all things" (D&C 76:51-55). They will be priests and 
priestesses, kings and queens, receiving the Father's glory, having the fulness of knowledge, 
wisdom, power, and dominion (D&C 76:56-62; cf. 107:19). (The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Church of
the Firstborn).

Firstly, it's present-tense in the New Testament.

Revelation 1:5-6: "Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father..."

The Greek verb epoiesen "he made/has made" is telling the living members of the early seven churches that Christ already made them kings and priests on earth.

D&C 84:33-34 states that those who received the Melchizedek priesthood on earth become "the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God."

You cannot inherit a kingdom as a king unless you have already been legally entered into the royal line. The Melchizedek priesthood is the vehicle that binds them to that royal order now and the afterlife. Someone receives true kingly "dominion" in the afterlife, but I'm arguing about what authority the New Testament church was operating under.

[theplains]

On 7/6/2026 at 7:20 PM, Pyreaux said:

Firstly, it's present-tense in the New Testament.

Revelation 1:5-6: "Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father..."

Is it in the present or future tense in Doctrine and Covenants 76:52-59?

"That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive 
the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And 
who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth 
upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are 
they into whose hands the Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who 
have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order 
of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten 
Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—Wherefore, all things are 
theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are 
Christ's, and Christ is God's".

 

On 7/6/2026 at 7:20 PM, Pyreaux said:

The Greek verb epoiesen "he made/has made" is telling the living members of the early seven churches that Christ already made them kings and priests on earth.

Women too?
 

On 7/6/2026 at 7:20 PM, Pyreaux said:

D&C 84:33-34 states that those who received the Melchizedek priesthood on earth become "the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God."

You cannot inherit a kingdom as a king unless you have already been legally entered into the royal line. The Melchizedek priesthood is the vehicle that binds them to that royal order now and the afterlife. Someone receives true kingly "dominion" in the afterlife, but I'm arguing about what authority the New Testament church was operating under.

LDS women do not receive the Melchizedek priesthood.

[Pyreaux]

On 7/13/2026 at 8:20 AM, theplains said:

Is it in the present or future tense in Doctrine and Covenants 76:52-59?

"That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive 
the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And 
who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth 
upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are 
they into whose hands the Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who 
have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order 
of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten 
Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—Wherefore, all things are 
theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are 
Christ's, and Christ is God's".

Women too? LDS women do not receive the Melchizedek priesthood.

Are you assuming mutual exclusivity? Can't an ultimate, perfected state in the afterlife also be an active covenant status, lineage, or authority held in mortality? Are there no kings or priests in mortality now or in the past? Of course there were.

"They are they who are the church of the Firstborn."

"They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things."

"They are they who are priests and kings..."

Even in your prooftext focused on the future, the text uses present-tense markers ("are" and "has given") to describe the covenant identity of those who overcome. A promise of ultimate inheritance in the afterlife does not erase the legal initiation that happens in the present.

Concerning whether LDS women do not receive the Melchizedek priesthood

On the contrary, women are washed, anointed, endowed like every priest. Temple Marriage is the highest order of the priesthood. It is as it was in ancient Near Eastern and ancient Israelite royal theology, a king cannot be crowned in isolation. Kingship and Queenship were inextricably linked through royal, temple-based initiations. LDS Women even participate in administering ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood in the temple to other women. As Joseph Smith taught when organizing the Relief Society and introducing the Temple Endowment, women are anointed to become Queens and Priestesses jointly with their husbands.

The ancient temple rites is where sacred myrrh oil, vestments, and entry past the veil were given to the pair (Temple Marriage Psalm, Psalm 45).

Edited July 25 by Pyreaux

[theplains]

On 7/25/2026 at 5:13 PM, Pyreaux said:

Are you assuming mutual exclusivity? Can't an ultimate, perfected state in the afterlife also be an active covenant status, lineage, or authority held in mortality? Are there no kings or priests in mortality now or in the past? Of course there were.

"They are they who are the church of the Firstborn."

"They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things."

"They are they who are priests and kings..."

I don't understand the question about mutual exclusivity.  But assuming you believe Abraham is
already a God now, then yes, that would mean he is a king and priest now as how some interpret
what being a king and priest means.

However, the writings of Peter and John in the Book of Revelation reveal that this becoming a
priest and king does not require physical death and then a resurrection.

The passages you quoted above are only a reference to exalted beings in LDS theology.
 

On 7/25/2026 at 5:13 PM, Pyreaux said:

Concerning whether LDS women do not receive the Melchizedek priesthood

On the contrary, women are washed, anointed, endowed like every priest. Temple Marriage is the highest order of the priesthood. It is as it was in ancient Near Eastern and ancient Israelite royal theology, a king cannot be crowned in isolation. Kingship and Queenship were inextricably linked through royal, temple-based initiations. LDS Women even participate in administering ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood in the temple to other women. As Joseph Smith taught when organizing the Relief Society and introducing the Temple Endowment, women are anointed to become Queens and Priestesses jointly with their husbands.

The ancient temple rites is where sacred myrrh oil, vestments, and entry past the veil were given to the pair (Temple Marriage Psalm, Psalm 45).

Do LDS women also hold the Aaronic priesthood?

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

I don't understand the question about mutual exclusivity.  But assuming you believe Abraham is
already a God now, then yes, that would mean he is a king and priest now as how some interpret
what being a king and priest means.

However, the writings of Peter and John in the Book of Revelation reveal that this becoming a
priest and king does not require physical death and then a resurrection.

The passages you quoted above are only a reference to exalted beings in LDS theology.
 

Do LDS women also hold the Aaronic priesthood?

There is a distinction between the covenant initiation and resurrected state. An heir to a crown first becomes a prince at birth (in our case through formal covenant adoption by the Lord, "Born-again"). They hold the status, authority, and title of heir long before they sit on the throne to rule the kingdom.

Abraham was already a king and a priest, that is what the Everlasting Covenant is, "I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee." (Genesis 17:6). The Hittites explicitly address Abraham, "Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince [literally, 'a prince/king'] among us." (Genesis 23:6)

Abraham received his priesthood under the hands of Melchizedek in life (Genesis 14:18–20; Hebrews 7; D&C 84:14). Melchizedek was actively a King and a Priest governing a city in mortality, and Abraham was ordained under his hands to the same order, then the order of King-Priests was an active, earthly covenant institution.

Pushing the "Royal Priesthood" into the afterlife fails when you look at how "keys" of authority function among Christians. The Key of David (Revelation 3:7, Isa. 22:22) is an explicit earthly authority. "What he opens, none shuts; what he shuts, none opens."

Jesus, son of David, explicitly bestows this key to Apostles on earth, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven..." If Christians had no priesthood in life, then why did Christ bestow the keys of a royal steward to mortal men to perform ordinances ("bind on earth") during mortality? (Matthew 16:19). If early Christians had no active priesthood or authority in mortality, then the commission to baptize, laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost, and the Lord's Supper had no significance. How are non-authorities remitting sins (John 20:23)?

The Aaronic Priesthood is the namesake of the lesser rungs of the Melchizedek priesthood itself for ward-level ecclesiastical duties. Neither men nor women are striving to inherit the inferior Aaronic Priesthood. The Aaronic Priesthood is a preparatory, temporary order (Hebrews 7:11–12). Revelation, D&C 76, and D&C 131 is not promising the Aaronic Priesthood. The Everlasting Covenant of Marriage is the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood which cannot be entered by a men alone.

Edited July 27 by Pyreaux