Does the Bible teach the doctrine

[Zakuska]

Thats easy BCSpace... God the master Wizard conjures the spirit material into existance out of nothing and immeditaly forms it into a Spirit.

[Zakuska]

Isa 45

[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

[10] Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

[11] Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

BC do you see any "willing into existance out of nothing" going on in this verse?

I do see that god commands his creations. But no popping in and out of existance going on.

[BCSpace]

Thats easy BCSpace... God the master Wizard conjures the spirit material into existance out of nothing and immeditaly forms it into a Spirit.

Oh, you mean he waves His hand? Oops! Does God even have a hand in the contraBiblical trinity religion?

Actually, in traducianism (aka original sin), they teach that when humans copulate, their spirits also copulate producing (get ready for this) millions of spirit babies every year!

Of course the origins of original sin heresy have been largely swept under the rug....

[BCSpace]

BCSpace  writes,

LOL! Then what pre-existing material is the spirit formed from in Zech 12:1? Round and round you go...... 

The pre-existing material that God forms out of nothing.

Here, johnny now admits that our spirits existed previously. A stunning admission! Notice that johnny can give you no verses showing that God created anything at all out of nothing.

Were these spirits cognizant? Well, since angels are the spirits of men and women (some might have physical bodies if they've been resurrected) and they fought against Lucifer in the war in heaven and since a whole host of people (never designated as angels) existed before Adam you bet they were.

And your proof is? Check your Lexicon on 'formed' yet? 

Check the Bible ... Man, whole and entire, is willed by God. God needs no pre-existent thing in order to create. He simply commands and creates ...

Isa 45

[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

[10] Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

[11] Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

None of that shows creation out of nothing nor does it preclude creation out of existing materials. And I notice you STILL refuse to check your Lexicon.

[BCSpace]

BC do you see any "willing into existance out of nothing" going on in this verse?

I don't and johnny has yet to point it out.

I do see that god commands his creations. But no popping in and out of existance going on.

Same here.

[johnny]

BCSpace  writes,

Here, johnny now admits that our spirits existed previously. A stunning admission! Notice that johnny can give you no verses showing that God created anything at all out of nothing.

Material is not "our spirits" ... What was before Gen 1:1 ... I say their was nothing.

Were these spirits cognizant? Well, since angels are the spirits of men and women (some might have physical bodies if they've been resurrected) and they fought against Lucifer in the war in heaven and since a whole host of people (never designated as angels) existed before Adam you bet they were.

Material is not congnizant. Angels are not the spirit of men and women ... clearly this is not supported by the Bible.

[Zakuska]

Very curious indeed...

I always thought he waved a Pheonix wand around from Ollivanders?! Thats how he conjured things out of nothing.

[BCSpace]

Material is not "our spirits" ... What was before Gen 1:1 ... I say their was nothing.

What matters (pun intended) to all other Christians is what the Bible says, not what you say. Even the word translated as 'created' in Genesis 1 means made out of existing materials. You would know that if you checked your Lexicon.

Were these spirits cognizant? Well, since angels are the spirits of men and women (some might have physical bodies if they've been resurrected) and they fought against Lucifer in the war in heaven and since a whole host of people (never designated as angels) existed before Adam you bet they were.

[philstone]

The first chapter of Job statesit as such.

[johnny]

BCSpace  writes,

What matters (pun intended) to all other Christians is what the Bible says, not what you say. Even the word translated as 'created' in Genesis 1 means made out of existing materials. You would know that if you checked your Lexicon.

What matters what is what the Early Christian Hermas said,

"And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, 'Hail, Hermas!' And looking up to her, I said, 'Lady, what doest thou here? 'And she answered me, 'I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.' 'Lady,' said I, 'are you to be the subject of my accusation?' 'No,' said she; 'but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me."

Hermas,Shepard,1:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:9

"First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing."

Hermas,Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20

It is when organized into spirit.

Could you explain how material is congnizant ... is a rock congnizant ?

Webster defines cognizant as "knowledgeable of something especially through personal experience;"

Yes it is. God the Father is the Father of spirits (as per Hebrews 12:9; the Lexicon shows that this is in the literal 'male progentitor' sense along with a mother). Men and women are spirits (James 2:26) and angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Hence angels are the spirits of men and women.

Clealy Gen 2 does not show a Father and a Mother ... instead of reading the Lexicon I would suggest reading the Bible:

Gen 2

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[21] And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

[Makarios]

For those who think "Father" always refers to a literal father, as opposed to being a metaphor, I am interested in your understanding of the following:

John 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Ok, is the devil the literal father of the Pharisees? Did the devil have relations with a female devil spirit in the preexistence giving birth to the spirit children who are the Pharisees?

This is not simply a cheap shot. I am using the logic I have seen in this thread: that father means father and that it is always literal.

Another example:

James 1:17 All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change.

God is said to be the father of the luminaries. Is this literal or figurative? Did God literally father the stars or did he simply create them?

One more text:

1Cor. 4:15 For though you may have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Was Paul the literal father of the Corinthians or is this a figurative use of the term?

[Zakuska]

Makarios

You forgot one...

Eph 6

1 CHILDREN, bobey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

I'll up your Shepard of Hermas and see you a Peter.

2 Peter 3

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell sleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are aignorant of, that by the bword of God the heavens were of old, and the cearth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto afire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The earth was made our of a pre-existing watery chaos.

[Makarios]

Edit:  Check this out.  I failed to notice originally that in this Hebrews 12:9 case 'Pater' is plural having reference to both father AND mother.  Hmmmmmm.....

The noun is dative, masculine, singular. What mss shows this to be plural?

By the way, BCSpace I would be interested in your response on the God as Father thread. So far other Mormons seem to be disagreeing with your understanding of the meaning of 'father.'

[BCSpace]

Edit:

[Makarios]

Looking in Thayer's verse by verse help on 'Pater' it mentions that in Hebrews 12:9 it is plural 'of both parents'.

I asked for the exact reference over there. Thanks!

In that thread, I posted the quote and the reference so that you may point out to any LDS who disagree with the LDS doctrine that God the Father is our literal Father (of our spirit bodies) that they are going against the doctrine of the Church they claim to be a member of.

More likely as the case may be, you can assure them that the Church teaches it as milk and not meat.  Afterall, this concept is found explicitly stated in chapter 2 of 'Gospel Principles'.

Thanks, very helpful.

[BCSpace]

johnny wrote....

What matters what is what the Early Christian Hermas said,

"And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, 'Hail, Hermas!' And looking up to her, I said, 'Lady, what doest thou here? 'And she answered me, 'I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.' 'Lady,' said I, 'are you to be the subject of my accusation?' 'No,' said she; 'but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me."

Hermas,Shepard,1:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:9

"First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing."

Hermas,Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20

johnny forgets that the early Christians believed in the pre-existence. Let's start with the Pastor of Hermas himself......

"She[the Church] was created first of all...and for her sake was the world made." The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 2:4 in ANF 2:12

Origen believed that God created a certain number of souls and gave them free will. They could by their own choice, advance in glory by imitating God or rebel against Him. Except for Christ's pre-existent soul, all rebelled to one degree or another and expereinced a 'pre-cosmic' fall prior to the creation of the earth and this gave rise various gradations of spiritual beings in the world. (Very close to LDS doctrine not suprisingly). Kelly, J.N.D., Early Christian Doctrines, 180

Peter said "after all things He made man, on whose account He prepared all things, who's internal species is older, and for whose sake all things that are were made..." Regarding the "internal species", the Presbyterian translators add the footnote: "That is, his soul, according to the doctrine of the pre-existence of souls." Clementine Recognitions 1:28, in ANF 8:85

So likewise Justin Martyr, Mathetes to Diognetus, The Epistle of Barnabas etc. Early Christians all.

R.G. Hammerton-Kelly, professor of New Testament at McCormick Theological Seminary also showed that not only is the pre-existence of Christ explicitly taught in the NT, but also the pre-existence of the Church (as many Early Christian Fathers also taught).

"One is impressed by the ease with which the idea of pre-existence is assumed as the background for certain aspects of Paul's theology, especially for his doctrines of Christ and the Church..." Hammerton-Kelly, Pre-Existence, Wisdom, and the Son of Man, 156, 152

And there are many more....

[ScriptureLover]

Indded! Here are others to consider as well, from an excerpt of a paper I have....

The Book of 2 Enoch 23:4,5 says:

"all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. For all the souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.36

Charlesworth notes that the phrase "formation of the earth" (zemlunago) is reminiscent of Mt. 24:34, and could be a Christian gloss. But the passage is talking about the pre-existence of all souls. "Even Adam existed before he was sent to earth."37 And in 2 Enoch 32, Charlesworth notes that "The idea that Adam was demoted from a heavenly paradise to earth is found in Origen."38 The curious exegesis of Genesis 3:19f causes Charlesworth to say it is unique, in that, "It implies that Adam, made in a heavenly Paradise from materials brought from the earth, is now sent back to his native element to live there."39 R.H. Charles said that this doctrine of the pre-existence of souls "made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt. This doctrine was also taught by the Essenes according to Josephus, and "it became the prevailing dogma in later Judaism. All souls which were to enter human bodies existed before the creation of the world in the Garden of Eden... These souls were conceived of as actually living beings. According to 'Bereshith rabba' c. 8, God takes council with the souls of the righteous before he creates the earth."40 This is precisely what the Book of Abraham notes.

3 Enoch, explicitly states that the souls of the righteous have not been created yet (meaning been born on the physical earth), and that the celestial palaces contain many treasuries and storehouses. There are also the archives wherein all deeds of man are recorded in the heavenly books, which will be opened at the heavenly court for judgement, and there is also a reference to the storehouse wherein the heavenly beings are kept.41 The editor's comment at 3 Enoch 43:1 is interesting! "...the souls of the righteous and the spirits and souls which are yet to be created [i.e. to be born]...the pre-existence of the soul is implied throughout this chapter...and the benediction 'Elohay neshamah' recited on waking from sleep: 'Oh my God, the soul which thou gavest me is pure.'"42 In fact, The Talmud itself refers to the pre-existence of souls with the curious comment: "The Son of David shall not come till all the souls are completed which are in the guph - (i.e. the pre-existence of souls is taught, and that they re kept in heaven till one after another appears in human form, and that the Messiah is kept back till all these shall have appeared), proof of this is derived from Isaiah lvii. 16."43

NOTES

36. Charlesworth, "The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha," vol. 1, p. 140. Cf. David A. Cooper, "God is a Verb," Riverhead Books, 1997, p. 107 - "The Zohar teaches that before God sends souls into the world, they are formed into male and female pairs." Isaac Luria taught there are "fundamental soul types..." p. 108. "The soul of man was originally clothed in a purely spiritual garment," in Gershom Scholem, "On the Kabbalah and its Symbolism," Schocken Books, 1965, p. 71. Cf. the idea of the "grades of the soul" in Willis Barnstone, "The Other Bible," HarperSanFrancisco, 1984, p. 708f.

37. Charlesworth, "Ibid.," p. 141, note f.

38. Charlesworth, "Ibid.," p. 154, note c.

39. Charlesworth, "Ibid.," p. 155, note b. Cf. Marcus Von Wellnitz, "Christ and the Patriarchs: New Light from Apocryphal Literature and Tradition," Horizon, 1981,

," p. 13, wherein he has many references to Adam as a pre-existent being. Kenas, an early prophet saw the spirits of men walking around waiting to be born in the world after it is created according to the Psuedo-Philo.

40. R. H. Charles, "The Apocrypha & Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament," Oxford, 2 vols., reprint, 1979, vol. 2, p. 444, note 5. Cf. the large and utterly fascinating discussion of this in Julian Morgenstern, "The Mythological Background of Psalm 82," in "Hebrew Union College Annual," Vol XIV, 1939, pp. 29-126.

41. Charlesworth, "Ibid.," vol. 1, p. 240.

42. Charlesworth, "Ibid.," p. 294.

43. Alfred Edersheim, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah," Macdonald Publishing, 2 vols., 1898, vol. 2, p. 728. Cf. Charlesworth, "Ibid.," p. 294 - "The storehouse of beings: Heb. 'gup habberiyyot.' This storehouse is mentioned in b. Yeb 62a; 63b; b.AZ 5a: b.Nidd 13b. Rashi explains the idea thus: There is a treasure-house ['osar] called 'gup' and at the time of creation all souls destined to be born were formed and placed there. "Gup" - a chamber like a body [gup]: the name for the special place for souls which are about to be born. "Gup" - A Curtain [pargod] which forms a partition between the Shekinah and the angels, and there are placed spirits and souls created since the six days of creation, which are to be put in bodies yet to be created."

[BCSpace]

Great stuff!

[johnny]

BCSpace,

Hermas is not teaching pre-existence in Vision 2:4 in ANF 2:12.

It is clear the Hermas taught Ex Nihilo.

And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, 'Hail, Hermas!' And looking up to her, I said, 'Lady, what doest thou here? 'And she answered me, 'I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.' 'Lady,' said I, 'are you to be the subject of my accusation?' 'No,' said she; 'but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me."

Hermas,Shepard,1:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:9

"First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing."

Hermas,Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20

[johnny]

ScriptureLover,

The Book of Enoch is fun to read but for me it is not Holy Scripture.

[Zakuska]

As expected.

Hermas is not teaching pre-existence in Vision 2:4 in ANF 2:12.

Denial!

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Explain Vision 2:4 in terms of pre-existence

[Zakuska]

SHE is the church. the congregation of God. His children. She was the driving force behind why the world was made. Gods "congregation" the members of the church (all the human race) existed in her before the world was.

Proverbs 8 demonstrates this perfectly.

Her delights where with the "sons of man"... but she was in heaven. Who are all these sons of men In heaven before the foundation of the earth?

[BCSpace]

SHE is the church. the congregation of God. His children. She was the driving force behind why the world was made. Gods "congregation" the members of the church (all the human race) existed in her before the world was.

Amen! Notice that johnny cannot address the other quotes as well, and I have more waiting in the wings.....