johnny Posted November 4, 2005 Posted November 4, 2005 BCSpace,The Catholic Church has clarified these other quotes with the teaching of Ex Nihilo.I notice you have not addressed the clear Ex Nihil quotes by Hermas.
ScriptureLover Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Johnny:The Book of Enoch is fun to read but for me it is not Holy Scripture.Kerry:I understand. No biggie to me.............
ScriptureLover Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Johnny:The Catholic Church has clarified these other quotes with the teaching of Ex NihiloKerry:A decidely late non-biblical interpretation, to be sure..............
Zakuska Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Johnny:The Book of Enoch is fun to read but for me it is not Holy Scripture.Kerry:I understand. No biggie to me............. The silly thing... It used to be scriptrue for over 300 years.The only reason it was removed was because of unknown authorship. Heck. If thats the case I know several books in the bible that suffer from the same thing or worse.
johnny Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Proverbs,A decidely early Church Father interpretation: "And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, 'Hail, Hermas!' And looking up to her, I said, 'Lady, what doest thou here? 'And she answered me, 'I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.' 'Lady,' said I, 'are you to be the subject of my accusation?' 'No,' said she; 'but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me."Hermas,Shepard,1:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:9 "First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing."Hermas,Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20 "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence."Irenaeus,Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370 "And further, as God, because He is uncreated, is also unalterable; so if matter, too, were uncreated, it also would be unalterable, and equal to God; for that which is created is mutable and alterable, but that which is uncreated is immutable and unalterable. And what great thing is it if God made the world out of existent materials? For even a human artist, when he gets material from some one, makes of it what he pleases. But the power of God is manifested in this, that out of things that are not He makes whatever He pleases; just as the bestowal of life and motion is the prerogative of no other than God alone." Theophilus of Antioch,Autolycus,2:4(A.D. 181), in ANF,II:95 "And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing." Theophilus of Antioch,Autolycus,2:10(A.D. 181), in ANF,II:97-98 "[H]e[Hermogenes] takes from Him everything which is God, since he will not have it that He made all things of nothing." Tertullian,Hermogenes,1-2,in ANF,III:477 "The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding word, His arranging wisdom, His mighty power, brought forth from nothing this entire mass of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty; whence also the Greeks have bestowed on it the name of Cosmos."Tertullian,Apology,17:1(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:31 "Now, with regard to this rule of faith-that we may from this point acknowledge what it is which we defend-it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son."Tertullian,Prescription Against the Heretics,13:1(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:249 "For if God produced all things whatever out of nothing, He will be able to draw forth from nothing even the flesh which had fallen into nothing; or if He moulded other things out of matter, He will be able to call forth the flesh too from somewhere else, into whatever abyss it may have been engulphed."Tertullian, Resurrection of the Flesh,11(A.D. 210),in ANF,III:553 "On the first day God made what He made out of nothing. But on the other days He did not make out of nothing, but out of what He had made on the first day, by moulding it according to His pleasure."Hippolytus, Six Days Work(Hexameron)(A.D. 217),in ANF,V:163 "First, That there is one God, who created and arranged all things, and who, when nothing existed."Origen, Fundamental Doctrines,Preface 1(A.D. 225),in ANF,IV:239
johnny Posted November 6, 2005 Posted November 6, 2005 David Bokovoy writes, You did not explain how these verses
Zakuska Posted November 6, 2005 Posted November 6, 2005 My intrepretation does not suffer, I would agree that God made him alive when God blew into him. His intrepretation does not support the idea that his spirit pre-exited.And thats exactly what we have been saying Johnny. The Phneuma or Spirit breath of life Pre existed. ITs symantec games and talking past each other on the definition of Soul.1 Thes. 5: 23 23 And the very God of peace asanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.This might help.
johnny Posted November 6, 2005 Posted November 6, 2005 Zakuska,What is your point with 1 Thes. 5: 23 ?Their are no scripture to support "The Phneuma or Spirit breath of life Pre existed." ... scripture speaks of the breath of the AlmightyGen 2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Job 33[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
David Bokovoy Posted November 7, 2005 Author Posted November 7, 2005 Hello Johnny,Could you explain your reading of "curiously wrought" ... I would intrpret as "fashioned as".Could you explain your reading of "substance" ... I would interpret it as something like "bone"I
Zakuska Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 Zakuska,What is your point with 1 Thes. 5: 23 ?Their are no scripture to support "The Phneuma or Spirit breath of life Pre existed." ... scripture speaks of the breath of the AlmightyGen 2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Job 33[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. The very fact that God breaths it means it has had an existance from eternity passed.
johnny Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 Zakuska,What is "it" ... is it man's spirit or is it his breath?
David Bokovoy Posted November 7, 2005 Author Posted November 7, 2005 Could you describe this "spirit world"?For an analysis of the biblical views concerning the underworld, I have found the following sources especially helpful: Theodore J. Lewis,
johnny Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 David Bokovoy,I would disagree that there is a major difference between the Catholic view of Hell and the biblical notion of Sheol (see Catholic teaching below). The Catholic teachings is supported by scripture.633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. [Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13] Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": [Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26] "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.Shouldn't developed LDS doctrine be consistent with scripture?From my perspective the place described in Psalm 139:15 sounds very different than the place described in the LDS teaching below:God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. "All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body" (Joseph F. Smith, "The Origin of Man," Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).
David Bokovoy Posted November 7, 2005 Author Posted November 7, 2005 Shouldn't developed LDS doctrine be consistent with scripture?Absolutely not! Articles of Faith 8 and 9:We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.That having been said, as I have continually illustrated, Latter-day Saint theology remains much closer to what appears in the Bible than the Hellenized Christian spin.
johnny Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 David Bokovoy,I would disagree that LDS theology is closer to what appears in the Bible.I prefer Christian theology because it is consistent with what the Bible reveals.
Zakuska Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 Zakuska,What is "it" ... is it man's spirit or is it his breath? "It" is the same thing. Two different names of the same thing. The Egyptians called it the Ka.
Zakuska Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 I prefer Christian theology because it is consistent with what the Bible reveals.ROFL!What... like celebate Bishops.
johnny Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 Zakuska,Since that is off-topic I suggest you look at the following link:http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0104sbs.asp
David Bokovoy Posted November 8, 2005 Author Posted November 8, 2005 Johnny,I would disagree that LDS theology is closer to what appears in the Bible.I prefer Christian theology because it is consistent with what the Bible reveals.Even if you remain unwilling to budge but an inch in our continued efforts to illustrate the existence of such concepts within the Bible as a plurality of Gods, a Divine Council, and a preexistent human soul, etc., I have to admit that I feel a bit surprised that after all this time, you would actually suggest that LDS theology does not equal a Christian theology.As a Christian, I feel that I must now disengage from this conversation. Thanks anyway for the interactions. Best wishes to you and your pursuits.
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