Does the Bible teach the doctrine

[Zakuska]

Johnny... do you even know what the Anchor Bible dictionary is?

It was written by Dr. Ramond E Brown. You have contradicted every reference Father Brown gave.

Nice Job!

Sorry Johnny I'll take Dr. Browns interpretation of Scirpture over yours any day!

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Gen 2:7 reveals that that the soul did not "infinitly existed" ... became a living soul. Just because God' breath is eternal does not mean that the soul has pre-existence. Jeremiah is speaks of being "ordained" a prophet, John the Baptist was ordained a prophet because he was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb. Both men and angels are "sons of God" because they are created by God, but angels do not become mortal men. A heavenly assembly consist of angels not angels who become mortal men. Jesus clearly states his blindness was not a a result of sin.

You are getting hung up on the words Johnny.

The "spirit" or breath of life infinityly existed with God. Our Spirit is eternal. Our soul when ressurected will be as well.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

The soul had a beginning ... it became a living soul. The breath of life is not an individual soul.

[Zakuska]

Not According to Father Brown. Ill stick with him thank you.

Second... The "Man" became a living soul. the soul didn't become a living soul because the soul already existed and was living but not as a man.

Matt. 18: 10

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Men are Angels Johnny.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Johnny,

The depths of the earth: figurative language for the womb, stressing the hidden and mysterious operations that occur there.

This statement is very problematic on many levels.

In the Old Testament, the expression

[Zakuska]

Because for Johnny, it has to mean what the Catholic Cathecism says it says.

And more importatnly it has to mean exactly opposite of what any Mormon says it says. Come hell or high water. Even when a Catholic Theologian agrees.

[Makarios]

Johnny... do you even know what the Anchor Bible dictionary is?

It was written by Dr. Ramond E Brown. You have contradicted every reference Father Brown gave.

Nice Job!  

Sorry Johnny I'll take Dr. Browns interpretation of Scirpture over yours any day!

The ABD is a six volume set with hundreds of authors, edited by Freedman. Why would you suggest it was written by Brown? He may have contributed to it, but even the article cited in this post was not by him. You are patronizing Johnny when you yourself have no idea what you are talking about.

[Makarios]

Men are Angels Johnny.

Please support this assertion.

[BCSpace]

It seems to me that Genesis 2:1 is the most obvious Bible reference to the doctrine of the pre-mortal existence. Notice that before Adam is placed on the earth, a host of people (check your Lexicon) have been created.

This is a nice observation on your part. Former Harvard Professor James Kugel has suggested the possibility of a similar reading:

[urroner]

Men are Angels Johnny.

Please support this assertion.

Angels, from what I understand, in ancient Hebrew, simply meant a messenger from God. A mortal man, in this sense, can be an angel as were the angels that talked to Abraham according to what I believe.

[BCSpace]

Returning to my original point. I find it very interesting that the Old Testament contains several passages, which feature the notion of a preexistent human soul that God extracts from the ground, i.e. spirit world in the process of creation.

Jehovah appears, at least in some sources, to have played an important role in this procedure. Genesis 4:1 should read,

[BCSpace]

Men are Angels Johnny. 

Please support this assertion.

Done! See the first of my two latest posts above.

[Zakuska]

Men are Angels Johnny.

Please support this assertion.

I thought I had... Matt 18:10

Acts 17:26 has also been mentioned.

[Makarios]

Men are Angels Johnny.

Please support this assertion.

Angels, from what I understand, in ancient Hebrew, simply meant a messenger from God. A mortal man, in this sense, can be an angel as were the angels that talked to Abraham according to what I believe.

The word translated 'angel' does mean messenger and can be applied to a human. However, it can also have a more specific reference to a supernatural being, not necessarily human. (Theological Wordbook of the OT).

[Makarios]

Rhino, lexiconal usage reveals that it is a host or a large number of people.

Host does not necessarily refer to people:

Tsaba (Hebrew for host) means army(ies). It can refer to any arrayed army (Jud 4:2), the inhabitants of heaven (1Kings 22:19), or the celestial bodies (Deut 4:19). (TWOT)

[Zakuska]

But in this particular case the "host" of both heaven and earth are specifically said to be "finished". Prior to Adam even being put on the earth.

[Makarios]

It is also not difficult to see that Gods, angels, and people are all the same species.  After all, Acts 17 says we are the literal offspring of God and if we are spirits (James 2:26) and angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14) and God the Father is the Father of all spirits (Hebrews 12:9), then we are all the same species just as the LDS Church teaches.  Thus ex nihilo, trinitarianism, and traducianism, etc. etc. are once again shown to be contraBiblical.

This seems to be an inference based upon a supposition- not too solid a grounding for your position.

God is the creator of all, therefore he is the Father of all. Father is a metaphor for creator. If you believe God is your literal father I suggest taking a peek at your birth certificate.

I know, I know, LDS believe in a pre-existence and that's how God can be a 'literal' father, but that is an assumption not found in these texts. So you are inferring your postion based upon this assumption which not all accept. There need to be quite a few more steps taken before this becomes anything more than an assertion of belief.

[Makarios]

Men are Angels Johnny.

Please support this assertion.

I thought I had... Matt 18:10

Acts 17:26 has also been mentioned.

How does Matt 18:10 support the idea that men are angels?

[johnny]

David Bokovoy,

Read the other verse in Psalm 139, they are figuartive ... are you saying men are from "lowest parts of the earth", doesn't the LDS church teache men were born of heavenly parents?

BCSpace,

Scripture clearly reveals that men are creatures created by God ... men are formed. The human person is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. A human body is animated by a spiritual soul. Angels are only spirit, angels do take on a mortal body. Eve was not born of heavenly parents, God made Eve after he took the rib from Adam' side.

Zakuska,

Matt 18:10 and Acts 17:26 does not support the idea that angels become mortal men.

[Zakuska]

When these "littlke ones" are in heaven their "angels" or "spirits" always see the face of God.

Angel in this case has been used to designate the animating inner soul or spirit. It is used in the same way here.

1 Cor. 11: 10

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Matt 18:10 and Acts 17:26 does not support the idea that angels become mortal men.

Yep becuase you say so huh?

Gotcha!

Scripture clearly reveals that men are creatures created by God ... men are formed. The human person is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. A human body is animated by a spiritual soul. Angels are only spirit, angels do take on a mortal body. Eve was not born of heavenly parents, God made Eve after he took the rib from Adam' side.

Who's rib was Eve made from?

[Makarios]

But in this particular case the "host" of both heaven and earth are specifically said to be "finished". Prior to Adam even being put on the earth.

Adam is put on the earth in Gen. 1:27. Gen. 2:1 summarizes the whole thing, so Adam is included. Then the story is re-told beginning in Gen. 2:4. You seem to be mixing the two creation accounts.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

The Bible reveals that neither Adam or Eve were born of spiritual parents as the LDS church teaches. Adam and Eve were created and formed.

[Zakuska]

No because there are two creations one a spiritual creation and another Physcial creation.

Adam is formed Spiritually in Gen 1:27 after the Image of God.

Gen 2 is a Phsyical creation. Where Adams adobe is created and his Spirit that God created in his image is placed into it.

This is further exasperbated by...

Gen 2

5 And every aplant of the field bbefore it was in the cearth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

I thought God created man clear back in Gen 1:27.

[BCSpace]

It is also not difficult to see that Gods, angels, and people are all the same species.  After all, Acts 17 says we are the literal offspring of God and if we are spirits (James 2:26) and angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14) and God the Father is the Father of all spirits (Hebrews 12:9), then we are all the same species just as the LDS Church teaches.  Thus ex nihilo, trinitarianism, and traducianism, etc. etc. are once again shown to be contraBiblical.

This seems to be an inference based upon a supposition- not too solid a grounding for your position.

God is the creator of all, therefore he is the Father of all. Father is a metaphor for creator. If you believe God is your literal father I suggest taking a peek at your birth certificate.

The birth certificate of your spirit is in Hebrews 12:9. God the Father is the Father of it. Also, Acts 17:28-29, we are the literal offspring of God. That verse set is NOT speaking of the adoptive sense by which we become members of Christ's Church because it refers to the heathen as well.

Rhino, lexiconal usage reveals that it is a host or a large number of people.

Host does not necessarily refer to people:

But it IS the primary definition given in the usage. A host of angels is a secondary definition and as you can plainly see, the case for angels and humans being the same species is quite good and well founded.