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Everything posted by smac97

  1. I've said stuff like this quite a few times on this board (emphasis added) : I think the Church should be held to the same behavioral / ethical / legal standards as any other similarly-situated organization. No worries. Thanks, -Smac
  2. Terrible as in ??? I was referring to the abuse victims. I thought that would be understood. Thanks, -Smac
  3. I think the "two teacher rule," stringently followed, would have had significant benefits. Two or more leaders with the youth at all times. When I was growing up in Utah County, the leaders were fairly lackadaisical in keeping track of each other. The tendency Robert notes above ("Simply trusting someone because he is presumably such a good guy turned out to be a disastrous policy") was easy to fall into because most of those someones were good guys. But that laxity created opportunity for predators. I currently teach the Valiants in my ward. I team-teach with a young man who is in college and also works inconsistent hours in the local hospital, so he is often not available. However, the Bishop and Primary President have created a "Bright Line Rule" sort of expectation as to team teaching, such that there is no circumstance where it is acceptable for a teacher to be alone with kids. My wife is in the YW, so she's never available. Most of the men in our ward know this, and so I have always felt comfortable with asking someone to come teach with me as a last-minute request. Thanks, -Smac
  4. Here: So it looks like the alleged abuse overlapped his tenure as bishop, but did not arise out of him functioning as a bishop. As I understand it, the Church normally waits for the criminal proceedings to play out before scheduling a membership council. Thanks, -Smac
  5. I think it means that, when the chips are down, the Ninth Circuit is comparatively not very good at getting the law right. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Perhaps so. The question, then, is whether Huntsman's lawsuit has a likelihood of being reversed by the Ninth Circuit. On balance, I will venture a guess that the district court's decision will be upheld. But it's the Ninth Circuit, so who knows? Agreed. I think this case has little to no chance of being heard by SCOTUS. What chance there is would arise because the Ninth Circuit reverses the trial court. Thanks, -Smac
  6. Here: Very cool. I have never been on Instagram. Thanks, -Smac
  7. Okay. I think "appealed to SCOTUS" assumes that cert is granted. Otherwise, there is no appeal. Yes. But regarding the few that are reviewed, the Ninth Circuit has a very poor reputation and record. Yes. But the point is that every circuit has its decisions reviewed by SCOTUS. Comparatively speaking, then, the Ninth Circuit does a fairly bad job of getting the law right. The reversal rate of the Ninth Circuit is a well-known punchline is legal circles. See, e.g., here: Yep. The "odds" being "against" them not because the Ninth Circuit got the law right, but that SCOTUS lacks the resources to babysit the Ninth Circuit. Thanks, -Smac
  8. Church of Jesus Christ will pay $250M into fund for Boy Scout sexual abuse claims Hmm. I'm curious as to how the Church - as a sponsoring institution - would be liable for damages in the same way the BSA would be. I'm curious if the BK court will approve this plan. I am curious as to how many claims have been filed by "Mormon Boy Scout troops." I think this is the first time I have heard allegations that there are "thousands" of such cases. It seems like mass tort litigation often results in the lawyers making a ton of money. The actual victims . . . not so much. What a terrible thing that has happened here. Thanks, -Smac
  9. Yes. Hence my statement that it is "one of the most overturned appellate courts." From the first link: The Ninth Circuit is reversed at nearly double the rate of the Tenth Circuit (which includes Utah). I think you are referencing this: Let me break it down a bit: 1. The federal courts are essentially in three tiers. The "District Courts" are the trial courts. Where the rubber hits the road. The litigants start here. They file pleadings and motions, participate in hearings and trial, that sort of thing. The district court judge then makes a decision to resolve the case. 2. If one side or other other in the case is dissatisfied with the district court's ruling, then they can file an appeal to the second or intermediate tier: the Circuit Court of Appeals. The United States is divided into several regions, called "circuits," one of which is the Ninth Circuit: 3. Per this article (from 2004), 10.9% of federal cases are appealed to the circuit courts. Per the Politifact article, in 2014 there were 11,908 appeals filed in the Ninth Circuit. That would mean that something like 109,248 federal lawsuits filed in the district courts in the Ninth Circuit, of which around 11,908 (10.9%) were appealed to the Ninth Circuit. (These are rough figures, as a lawsuit filed in 2015 could very well have been appealed in a different calendar year). 4. The Circuit Court is essentially obligated to adjudicate all of these 11,908 cases, because litigants at the district court level have the right to an appeal. However, that right ends at the circuit court. There is no definite "right" to an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. SCOTUS gets to pick and choose which appeals it will hear. And since SCOTUS is end of the road, and because SCOTUS also hears appeals from state appellate courts, that picking-and-choosing process has become very selective. For example, per the Politifact article SCOTUS agreed to consider just eleven (11) cases from the Ninth Circuit in 2015, eight (8) of which were reversed. 5. Per this article, in a given year there are more than 7,000 cases nationwide that request review from SCOTUS, from which SCOTUS selects 100-150. In other words, there is a substantial winnowing process here. If the foregoing pattern holds, then then in the Ninth Circuit there are about 110,000 cases filed, resulting in about 12,000 appeals to the Circuit Court of Appeals. Of those 12,000 or so, only a tiny percentage (11 in 2015, for example) end up before SCOTUS. 6. In other words, the vast majority of cases reviewed by the Ninth Circuit die there, since SCOTUS can only review a teeny-tiny handful of the many thousands of cases decided by the Ninth Circuit. 7. The Ninth Circuit nevertheless gets reversed a lot. A lot. And the Politifact article doesn't get things totally right. See, e.g., here (from 2017) : So . . . yeah. The Ninth Circuit is pretty bad. A decision by the Ninth Circuit that is appealed to SCOTUS has, on average, an 82% likelihood of being reversed. Thanks, -Smac
  10. Beats me. What I do know is that the judge Wilson agrees with me. He said in his ruling: Well, the judge didn't need to read between the lines to suss out an "ecclesiastical abstention" basis for dismissing the case because there were more readily-accessible "downstream" reasons to dismiss it, such that the judge did not need to go "upstream." The first element of "fraud" is "misrepresentation." The judge found that neither Pres. Hinckley nor anyone else speaking on behalf of the Church made any misrepresentation, and that "no reasonable jury" could reach the contrary conclusion that was reached by, well, a decent number of the critics on this board. From the decision (p. 8 ) : Holy cow. How much digital ink did the critics on this board spill trying to justify a conclusion that the judge said "no reasonable juror could" reach? That said, the judge did indicate that Huntsman ended up going into "ecclesiastical abstention" territory. From pages 11-2 (pertaining to the claims about Beneficial) : Oi. The sine qua non of a fraud claim is a false statement of fact. Huntsman's attorneys tried to pursue a fraud claim as to Beneficial by circumventing this, which is akin to suing someone for defamation but neglecting to identify the defamatory statement. Anyway, here's the key bit: So Huntsman was more overt in running afoul of the Ecclesiastical Abstention doctrine re: the Beneficial claim, such that the judge pointed it out. I think his attorneys were a bit more careful in tailoring their arguments about City Creek (though I still think they came pretty close to triggering the doctrine). In the end, the judge found that analyzing the statements made about City Creek did not require "intermeddl{ing} in internal ecclesiastical disputes." Sounds good. Ultimately, yes. I didn't say otherwise. Rather, I said: You responded: I responded: And here: Funny how context works. I think quoting the Bible exposes some of the motivation underlying the lawsuit. Even you admit that the footnote "implies that the Church is hypocritical on this point." Hypocrisy by way of . . . acting according to religious doctrines. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a religious dispute at all. A first-year law student would know not to ask a judge to "make a ruling based on a religious argument." However, it is quite possible to cloak an impermissible legal claim (such as a "religious argument") under the guise of a legal claim that would not get immediately shot down. ... I think Huntsman is saying his lawsuit is about "fraud." He has to say that, as admitting it would kill his case. But the lawsuit walks and talks like a vendetta. Like him seeking a pound of flesh. Like him wanting to make the Church look bad. Read the complaint again. It reeks of malice. It was a poorly drafted legal document, but it does quite well at telegraphing his animus against the Church. ... {I}f Huntsman is what he comes across as - a disgruntled former member of the Church out to stick to his former faith - then his Complaint makes perfect sense. Lawsuits trying to clawback donations to charitable organizations virtually never work. The narrow exception to this is . . . donations obtained via fraud. Fraud is Huntsman's only legal option. And it's a longshot. He has to prove up all nine elements, including falsity (a pretty tall order, as even you have admitted that the central issue - the characterization of "tithes" - amounts to "theoretical" and "semantics"), reasonable reliance, and causation. I see the chances of him proving these up to be . . . pretty low. So his lawyers are doing what they can when they have a legal theory that is unlikely to succeed on its merits: make a big stink about it, so that at least some bad press is generated. They did that in the complaint, and they did so again in the recent memorandum. ... "The substance of the dispute" is a fraud claim that has, in my view, very little chance of success. And it seems like a pretext, a means of using the courts to embarrass the Church, to get his pound of flesh. I remain convinced of that. Anyway, it looks like this case may not be quite over. From the Tribune: Judge tosses out James Huntsman’s tithing lawsuit against LDS Church, but an appeal looms Well, we'll see I guess. The Ninth Circuit is well-known for being one of the most overturned appellate courts in the U.S. (see here and here), but I would be surprised to see it overturn Judge Wilson's dismissal of this case. Thanks, -Smac
  11. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-6?lang=eng https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Meridian_of_Time https://askgramps.org/can-we-determine-the-timing-of-the-2nd-coming-by-defining-meridian-of-time/ As we consider the words of Joseph Fielding Smith, then the Savior’s birth was literally around, or at, the “meridian of time.” With regard to Wilford Woodruff, after reading his biography, he strongly felt and wouldn’t have been surprised if the Lord returned during the life of those who were still living. Other prophets have spoken the same thing, example, Joseph Fielding Smith, who once declared: However, these were their opinions in light of their studies and what prophecies were being fulfilled. If Joseph Fielding Smith is correct the millennium will begin in less than 30 years, as he mentioned at this conference that he felt some in the audience would be alive when the Savior comes. Yet, we know this may not be the case because it was his personal opinion. With regard to the Savior’s coming, I agree with Joseph Smith, it will be no later or earlier than the day he arrives. Sincerely, Gramps Thanks, -Smac
  12. An Interview with ERIC SMITH [CHAD DAYBELL'S FRIEND]
  13. Here: These seem like fair observations so far. I am sociopolitically "conservative," but I am very much not a fan of much of what QAnon seems to be offering, particularly as to its apparent anti-semitic leanings. Sadly, these ideas appear to be making inroads into the Church: I have some difficulty taking these numbers seriously. It seems odd to think that 18% of Latter-day Saints have even heard of QAnon, let alone subscribe to its kookiest claims. Huh. I wonder who these folks are. I tend to be a bit leery of taking at face valude references to "some" and "others." Anyway, here's where Denver Snuffer comes into it: I was broadly aware of this stuff. But here is where things begin to intersect with QAnon: According to Doctrine of Christ supporters, the virus and subsequent vaccine is part of the “Arch Tyrant” plan to depopulate 90% of the earth. One article pointed to the United Nations as central to this mission, with others citing the Illuminati, Masons, Jesuits, and other entities historically linked to end times apocalypticism. The conspiracies that found their place in American homes and internet forums became doctrine. Wow. Wow. Wow. A google search of "the return of joseph smith" yields some surprising results. Strange times, my friends. We are living in strange times. Thanks, -Smac
  14. Sure it can. It's an important topic, yes. You'll also note that I talk quite a bit about litigation involving the Church. I have written huge amounts of stuff about McKenna Denson, Laura Gaddy, the Huntsman lawsuit and many others. I also talk about historical issues, and about the Book of Abraham. And about BYU. I come here to talk about the Church. I think there is a disproportionate amount of news and social media coverage on matters pertaining to homosexuality. But the coverage is there, so I talk about it. And rather than talk about the topics I raise, CB very often veers into tangents wherein he focuses on critiquing and attacking me personally. That's not the way this board is supposed to work. Great. Feel free to talk about it. I just ask that CB and others quit hectoring me when I choose to talk about it. So yes. Personalizing threads is generally not something the mods are fond of seeing. Thanks, -Smac
  15. I think the Church is trying very hard to take a "soft touch" with members. The Brethren seem to be bending over backwards to try to accommodate members. On this point, though, there are members trying to enmesh the Church into a civil issue. The Church doesn't want its bishops participating as witnesses in divorce cases or other civil disputes, and also does not want bishops to be writing vaccine exemptions that invoke doctrine that isn't there. Thanks, -Smac
  16. I don't do that, either. Thanks, -Smac
  17. Not all of the sudden. You personalizing threads by talking about me personally rather than the topic is a very, very common thing. You are the one who accused me of being "obsessed." I responded by denying your personalized accusation. Sigh. I've asked respectfully to stop, and you continue to personalize the thread. I guess I'll report you to the mods and let them address it. Thanks, -Smac
  18. We will have to agree to disagree. My daughter was not responsible for his son’s thoughts. I don't think we disagree on that point. Very cool. I think we improve the Church by improving ourselves and then work together to improve and strengthen our community. Hmmm, funny you jump right to a person needing to improve themselves. Not really the point I was making, but ok. I said "I think we improve the Church..." In my marriage, I don't tend to "jump right to" me contemplating how my wife can improve herself. Motes and beams and all that. Thanks, -Smac
  19. Could you perhaps stop personalizing threads? Thanks, -Smac
  20. Sorry but it does. If breasts are not viewed as sexual then seeing them is not any more indecent than a hand or a foot. With respect, I disagree. Witnessing "indecent exposure" is not necessarily a matter of sexual arousal or attraction. Decorum, decency and propriety are also important considerations. I was born in Hawaii and lived there until I was five. I then moved to Utah, but I still have not acclimated to wearing shoes. I am barefoot at pretty much all times I am at home. And I never wear gloves. So I have no qualms about letting my children see my feet and hands. But I have never walked around nude below the waist. Not because I am concerned about sexual arousal/attraction, but rather because I think basic notions of modesty, decorum, decency and propriety preclude such indecent exposure. Thanks, -Smac
  21. Yeah, I really didn't appreciate that. I have never expressed any view that characterizes women in this way. I dunno. Consider this: And here: Seems like there is plenty of "objectification" going on, from both genders. Thanks, -Smac
  22. Okay. And through what information we obtain, and through how we evaluate it, and through our choices, and so on. Well, let's take a look at the threads I have started in the last while (the asterisked ones pertain to homosexuality): ***Identity = Child of God > Gay Man Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell) Minerva Teichert's Grandson's Lawsuit Against the Church Multiple Latter-day Saints churches lit on fire in St. George, man arrested RICO Act, Proposed Class Action against the Church - it is filed (Part 2) - Gaddy Lawsuit James huntsman (jon's brother) sues church for 'fraud' Salt Lake Tribune: Why the Church's $100B "May Be Needed" Elder Holland: BYU may need to "stand alone" Poll re Crystals / Tarot Cards / Fortunetelling Alaska Assistant Attorney General in "DezNat" Trouble New Book on Polygamy Federal lawsuit against religious schools, including byu BYU Requiring Vaccination Status August Updates to Handbook: Treatment of Refugees, No Politics in Church... Saturday Session of General Conference . . . is Back (in-person attendance...out) ***First Amendment Win in the 8th Circuit 'First amendment audits' in california (religious harassment - Disturbing stuff) Judge strikes daca, sez it's unconstitutional ***Dan reynolds on mormonism ***'A message from the gay community performed by the san francisco gay mens chorus' And now, a cheerful story.... Update on 2018 shooting in nv sacrament meeting Church preserving records of historic african-american cemetery Dan Peterson Takes on the "No Evidence At All for The Book of Mormon" Argument Article re worldwide population decline The parley p. Pratt freedom run An uplifting story ***Update on Masterpiece Cake Shop Case Trib article re: Native americans and the church New policy re: Lay leaders officiating in marriages Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 4 Two news items re: Latter-day saints and catholics Thoughts on 'magic' as a pejorative argument against theism Article re church's interest in land Mark hofmann's 'oath of a freeman' for sale at auction Increasing state-authorized/Mandated segregation Article re lack of consensus in evolutionary theory Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3 Byu devotional talk re: Sin of racism' Church building in missouri burned, arson suspected Stations of the cross videos produced by byu increase understanding of the catholic devotion The church's new 'international area organization adviser' position. How much of a thing is 'mormon survivalism? 'Inspired fiction' and doctrine and covenants section 27 Religious affiliation in u.S. Falls below 50 (first time ever) The Pronoun Wars Continue ***Catholic Church Prohibits Blessings of Same-Sex Unions ***"Y" on Mountain Above BYU Lit Up with Rainbow Colors Terryl Givens Weighs in on Ethics of Abortion New Discovery of Dead Sea Biblical Fragments - More to Come? "Mother" and "Father" Erased at British University Ex-Mormons on Shrooms What does a prophet look/act like? "Love One Another" v. "Black Lives Matter" "Mormon" as a Genetic Ethnicity? New Lawsuit Against Church in Oregon "Saints Unscripted" YouTube Channel is Really Doing Well Article Re: Declining Interest in Marriage (by Men) Update on "Witnesses" Film Erda Temple Moving to Tooele Update on Story Re: Decertification of BYU Police Controversy Re: USU Prez's Purported Comments on Polynesian Latter-day Saint Coach's Religious and Cultural Background Another Religion-based "Affinity Fraud" Case in Utah Church Rebukes Latter-day Saints Participating in Riot in DC w/ "Title of Liberty" Banner Apocalyptic Predictions About the Environment Jane Riess on Pixar's "Soul" Governor of New York Issues Executive Citation Commemorating 200th Anniversary of First Vision Saints Unscripted Interviews Don Bradley / "The Lost 116 Pages" Saints Unscripted - The Witnesses and "Trilemma" Analysis DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism? - Part 2 AZ Court of Appeals Issues Decision Re: Are Mormons Christian? Update on Human Trafficking Scam in AZ/UT SCOTUS Justice Alito: "Religious Liberty Is In Danger Of Becoming A Second-Class Right" Update on AZ Abuse Case Address by Pres. Nelson on 11/20/20 - "The Healing Power of Gratitude" Legalization of "Hard" Drugs Dan Vogel's "Early Mormon Documents" Now Online A Non-Political Point About a Political Ad Pres. Oaks and "Black lives matter" The Proclamation and Rugby: Developments in the Latter as a Reality Check on the Former Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture. Joseph Smith Papers, Volume 11 - Released Catholic Publisher Accidentally Uses Angel Moroni on Hymnal Cover Church in Recent News Items HBO Developing Another "Mormon" Drama Locals in Erda, Ut Complain Re: Temple Development, Church Responds.... Catholic Views on Priesthood Authority Interesting Article Re Byu Student Fighting Racism Shots Fired at Mtc Church Sued in California Covid = End of College 'As We Know It' = End of Byu? Recent Increased Violence Against Religious Symbols Laswuit Against Pres. Nelson's Daughter Dismissed Simon Southerton's New Book Church to Publish Sermons of Eliza R. Snow Jod as Evidence of Brigham Young's Racism ***Gay Utah County Commissioner Loses Primary, Partially Attributes Loss to His Orientation Religious Leaders Unite Against Racism, Rioting, Looting Byu Prof Charged: Sexual Misconduct Of these 98 topics, seven of them, or about 7%, pertain to issues about homosexuality, which is perhaps the most hotly contested and most frequently discussed topics in the Church today. And all of these pertain to my faith. Now let's take a look at the topics you have started (again, the asterisked ones pertain to homosexuality): ***We Can Find Common Ground on Gay Rights and Religious Liberty A Prophet of God ***In Latter Times Some Shall Forbid Marriage ***You Guys Need a Hug ***Is there a place in the Plan of Happiness for gays? Do you think there has been a revelation from God since Joseph Smith's time? Is the Bible the Words of God? ***Why would any straight person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS? ***Main resons for faith crisis So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster. ***The Last Ever Ssm Thread. Who's In? Why Is Organized Religion Failing ***Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon ***Plantiff Files Prop 8 Brief For Supreme Court ***The Church Has Done More For Gay Marriage Than Any Other Organization ***Marriott Pushes For Doma Repeal Does God Cause Natural Disasters? ***Has Anyone On This Board Softened Their Views Of Gay Marriage? ***Catholics Backing Away From Politically Fighting Gay Marriage. ***Prop 8 The Play To Broadcast On Youtube David Archuleta Announces He Is Serving A Mission ***George Cloney To Star In Dustin Lance Black'S Prop 8 Play Morality And The Presidency ***Prop 8, The Play Of these 25 topics, sixteen of them, or 64%, pertain to issues about homosexuality. My topics about homosexuality: 7% Your topics about homosexuality: 64% Would I describe you as "obsessed?" Nope. Why? Because the topic is relevant and important to you. For me, pretty much 100% oif my posts pertain to the Church. Its doctrines and policies. Its history and practices. Recent developments and news items about it. Lawsuits. And yes, the issue of same-sex attraction is a pretty common topic these days. And you regularly personalize threads to focus on me rather than on the topic. I'd really rather you not do that. Quite so. Sage wisdom, that. Thanks, -Smac
  23. I said nothing about "a mental image of porn." Please don't impute such things onto me. I find that very offensive. And I would rather not "think of her chest" at all. That was the point in my moving to the corner of the classroom and lecturing from there. I am fortunate in that I work in a legal setting, where everyone dresses professionally. I guess I'm sort of old-fashioned. I think men should dress modestly and professionally as well. Thanks, -Smac EDIT: Again, I have said nothing about "walking porn" or anything like it. Yes, there are cultural elements. I'm not particularly inclined to adjudicate incremental comparisons. I get that there is no "bright line rule" in terms of modesty, and that cultural expectations/norms play a part. I guess you'll have to take my word for it. If and when I encounter a woman who is wearing provocative/revealing clothing, I can avert my eyes. Look or turn away. Stop for a moment to tie my shoe. Don't ogle or stare or admire. Be a gentlemen. In the classroom setting, however, I did not really have those options. Thanks, -Smac
  24. I think she was likely oblivious. I have since ran into her a few times. She's a court clerk. Her professional dress is . . . professional. She often wore revealing clothing, and was situated in the classroom such that I felt obligated, both professionally and as a matter of decency and decorum, to lecture from the corner of the room rather than seeing what she was, well, revealing. As for my "preferences," I admit I am generally accustomed to working with women in a legal setting, where professional dress is the order of the day. Yep. Not sure why you are sneering at that. As our own Gui put it: "Gui's Law: In an online discussion of modesty, the probability that a defender of modesty is called a pervert approaches 1." It's strange that I went out of my way to not run afoul of generalized notions of decorum and propriety, and here you are mocking me for it. Thanks, -Smac
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