EllenMaksoud

I grew up with one, mom doesn't drink.  After seeing one just destroy every good thing around him that was warning enough for me.

I and many like me grew up in horrific violence and unspeakable abuse. Oh, to make no mistake, the church and I have our disagreements. But in my most angry and rebellious moments, Heavenly Father used them to save me when I was lost.

You've got a degree and though you do not have a job yet, you have achieved a lot. Some of the stuff seemed goofy to me at first, but in the quiet moments before I go to bed, and when I wake up, I am left without argument. I am where God put me.

I already work out a lot, no problem there.  Also I cook for myself.  Never eat fast food, expensive and I don't want to wreck my health. 

 

12 step program?  I have no addictions.  My father is a terrible alcoholic and from the looks of things is about to die from it.  (thats what you get for blowing $300-400 a week on booze).  I had a problem with it years ago, but I got over it slowly.  I'm a real tightwad so I looked at it this way, I have a low alcohol tolorance; a fruit fly could out drink me and I get terrible hangovers that last most of the day, so what would I rather do, waste money I really don't have or save it and feel ok the next day?  Easy answer I think.  Any other reasons you could think of why I could use one?  I'll take any help I can get.

 

Deffinetly check out the employment section.  I don't mind volonteering, but I really need an income of some kind.  My savings is running out fast and I would rather kill myself than be homeless again.

 

I had therapy before and I have a real dislike of a lot of out patient medical centers.  I was on medicaid at the time and if need be will get on it again.  My psycholigist was good, but the psychiatrist and everyone else there wanted to keep us on meds so we didn't  kill ourselves and cause a lawsuit or the fear they all had, shoot someplace up and have all the lawyers descend upon them.  All we needed was help and compassion and instead they treated us like risky money bags.

 

That sounds really nice, but considering how bad my life has been for a while now I would really need a lot of caring to make me feel better and it would probably take years to pull that off.  I've been through so much and tend to dislike people in general for how cruel they are. 

I hope that you do well. I was done in the purest sense of the word when the Mormons "captured" me. I have a friend who goes to Al-anon, a group for those who grew up with alcoholics. Just saying.

Honestly I'll take just about anything.  I just have to be careful with jobs that deal with the general public too much.  I have anxiety issues from some really bad life trauma a few years ago and am still slowly recovering.

I experienced about a dozen Evangelical Churches, and Islam. I have never seen any one care for me and help me to heal like the Mormons full stop. Of that I can guarantee you if you will invest your time and your intention.

I want to avoid meds like the plauge.  I got out of a really bad situation and those things make it even worse.  Thats why I'm giving this a try, you go to any mental hospital in the USA and thats all they do, give meds like people hand out candy on halloween.  No one here wants to pay for decieint mental healthcare, they want to drug the problem away and I'm trying to not do that.  I know its going to be a struggle, but I would rather work my way out and keep some dignity. 

 

Figured i'm going to have all kinds off issues to deal with, but thats life, its unfair, brutal and in many cases very short.

I met the Sisters in Kirtland on March 13th 2011. It changed my life. I've been in the situation where they were pumping me full of drugs and have been off them since 2007.

OK, there are some givens here. Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? I do and that eased my way.

I've also seen people drift in the door, give lip service to the beliefs, pump the church for what they can get out of them, and when that dries up, just disappear. So, it is your choice, and the more honest and devout you are, the more they can help you. I had a couple Old Testament things happen to me, so I know that God put me here with purpose and for me to just walk away, just would not work out.

We can talk more if you like

So, for those willing to take a firm position, how closely do you personally choose to follow the Word of Wisdom in your life?

Didn't know about the "Coke" thing.  I have one cup of very weak, sugared and creamed warm coffee a day. It helps to ease the effects of COPD.  The Bishop suggested that I take some drugs for it. NOT !

You're entitled to your opinion, but Doctrine & Covenants 84:54-58 doesn't put the Saints under condemnation for their neglect of the Bible.  Their neglect of the Book of Mormon, on the other hand ...

I am so busted. OK, I have to get to work.

It was on my FB feed yesterday!  And it's real, she did it for her Personal Progress in Young Women's.  Don't want to take away from it, but to her it's all about the BoM. 

Well, children only do what we teach them. The front of the BoM says, "A further revelation of Jesus Christ". So, I see it as aumentation of the Bible. To add to your reading pleasure, I also see the Qur'an as word from God.

If no Second Coming takes place:

 

1. Missionary work will continue with peaks and dips as always. Virtual missionary visits will become a thing.

2. The Church will fight against growing realistic entertainment that sucks us away from the real world.

3. The church will be opposed to unnecessary cybernetic augmentation.

4. As increasing automation frees us from most of economic scarcity the Church will place renewed emphasis on Temple Work, missionary work, self-improvement, and service focusing on emotional help.

5. Homosexual activism will be diminished after World War III.

6. Polygamy will be restored but require permission from Priesthood leaders.

7. There will be a small faction of sister wives seeking to recognize lesbian activity within their marriages.

8. Polyandry will be considered. It may even happen.

9. There will be a shift back to the physical gathering as LDS communities become more detached from the prevailing culture.

10. The Republican party in the US will become borderline fascist; the Democrats will begin a shift towards more extreme market socialism with utopian ideals they will not be able to deliver on. Both will learn to tone down their extremes after World War III assuming both parties survive. The church and members will slowly back up from political participation.

11. The growing access to porn worldwide will cause a global epidemic of porn addiction amongst those susceptible to it. Fetishes and perversions will become more commonplace. The Church will fight it.

12. The church will stay neutral on bioengineering lifeforms to perform tasks.

13. The church will take a stronger stand on physical health as many people deteriorate due to decreased need for physical activity. Depression and other mental and emotional ailments will continue to rise due to this lack.

14. Hispanics will be the dominant ethnicity through most of North and South America as the Lamanites blossom.

15. The prophet will continue to warn of coming problems and the Saints will lose members and gain members as we always have.

16. A good portion of the LDS people will be convinced that the Second Coming is imminent as they always have. They might be right but they might not be.

#2. I have no TV. It is a waste of my time. Fringe people will still watch it while in a substance fog.

#3  I won't be around for it, but if I was, I would want an eye that would let me see from Infrared to Ultraviolet, and have at least 10x magnification. Maybe in the middle of my forehead?

#5  Much of the world has an absolutely hostile view toward Homosexuality. As Hispanics increase, visible Homosexuality will vanish. When I worked in Honduras, there were no spike headed Lesbians, and no openly gay men, and most certainly no Transgender folk, no drag queens ...

Wait, I thought I saw something about Women's priesthood!  Can women decline it? After what I have seen, no way would I want to be a Bishop, no way!

#9  I think broadcasting the Conference is counterproductive. We should all meet together.

#10 As to politics, ICK !

#11 Porn drives bad treatment of women. Look up Anita Sarkeesian for a glimpse into a frightening future. Women will rapidly become significantly more modest to avoid unwanted attention. I and several other Mormon women that I know of already wear Hijab and long sleeves and long skirts or loose pants. It will only get harder for women as time goes on. Just read your history.

#13 I expect the church to prohibit so many kinds of foods very soon. Diabetes is epidemic. Many Americans are FAT, morbidly obese, slobs. Me included.

#14 Most Hispanics I know are morally superior to Americans.

The Second Coming?  Yes, well, He's late !

All About That Book (of Mormon)  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQ1l4LxZv4

That is a charming video! I did not get all the lyrics because of my hearing. So is this satirical or something else?

 

With all the focus on whether something said or taught is doctrine in the church these days,

I was wondering if there are any major things you have read in the church magazines or

training manuals or heard at General Conference talks that the Holy Spirit revealed to you

was actually a false teaching? Or do you believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder

tells you is really true?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

In my opinion, many members are treating the BOM as if it takes the place of the Bible.

It's what forever changed my life and threw me into a faith crisis since being unaware of JS' s polygamy, pretty naive I know.

It changed my life from bliss to bleak, my personality changed, I'd never once believed the church was untrue as far back as I can remember.

To go from one day to the next with a completely different belief does a number. All my years of trying to live up to covenants made in the temple (30 years), and trying to do everything asked of me, to then discovering the church isn't what you thought it was, has a way of affecting someone.

And not being able to leave it alone at the expense of my family. Makes one just a little ticked and obsessed, not a good combination.

I've had a lot, a lot, of experience with trauma, and Mental Illness. Judging by what I have read about him, he could have been Bi-polar, or something else. That does not mean that God could not have used him, and did.  And, in reading the Bible, there are those who God used, but got punished for wrong doing. Look at Adam, Moses, Solomon, Balem, and others. And none of them, especially David was perfect.

I have difficulty with polygamy because of Jacob 2. And there is a similar statement from God in the Qur'an. So clearly, one wife was God's preference. When I was first in Islam, polygamy was a normal thing. I was once asked to be 2nd wife, but did not do it. It is not likely that any of us will experience it.

The church has some very nice people who try to please God in it. Please do not lose sight of that.

I am asking a black and white question to which I want a black and white answer first than you can elaborate.  I also have follow up questions.

 

Question = What entity would you say holds authority in your life?  Where do you look to decide what is right and wrong?

 

A.) The Church

B.) Parents, Bishop, PH leader

C.) scriptures

D.) yourself (this can be a combination of your conscience, the Holy Ghost, reasoning, logic, study) etc.

 

 

When there is a conflict between any two answers above from A - C and what you personally arrive at, how do you reconcile.  What if you came to a conflict so great between A-C and yourself you could not reconcile?  What about specifically a conflict between A and D?

 

 

Where we place our authority (what is our source of beliefs and positions) says a lot about us and where we are on the journey.  I am curious about others here and how they handle such ideas and thopughts and if they can stand back and see their own shift from one authority to another?

 

Once some answers start coming in I will share my own perspective with some quotes.

God

I've got to say...bless the leaders & scholarly historians for putting up the essay. I can no longer be thought of as believing only anti stuff if my FC were ever to become known to the rest of my very TBM in laws. I now have a place to point them. It's just that I'd be instructed to go by an even bigger faith from here on out.

But I've been waiting for this day for years. Not to shove it in people's faces, I won't, but it's my get out of jail free card, it's my alibi, it's my insane free diagnosis, it's my get out of Twilight Zone nightmare card...need I go on? So grateful for this new day. ETA:  I hope Scott will help facilitate this being reported by the Deseret News as well!  Because the truth is useful!  Edit again:  DN article...good one!! 

I just do not understand the obsession with this.

The law of Sarah is not the law of consent. The law of Sarah is that if your wife does not give her consent, you are then free to proceed without it.

In Islamic law, the husband is supposed to ask first wife, and if he says no he can not. Most do it anyhow, or just divorce her and then do it.

It is now official, Joseph Smith did practice plural marriage. I am sorry Alan. 

 

"In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith married additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage." 

"Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings"

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/the-manifesto-and-the-end-of-plural-marriage?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

 

 

Remember, the Gospel Topics are approved by the First Presidency 

 

"Most of those sealed to Joseph Smith were between 20 and 40 years of age at the time of their sealing to him. The oldest, Fanny Young, was 56 years old. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today’s standards, was legal in that era, and some women married in their mid-teens. Helen Mar Kimball spoke of her sealing to Joseph as being “for eternity alone,” suggesting that the relationship did not involve sexual relations. After Joseph’s death, Helen remarried and became an articulate defender of him and of plural marriage."

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

Why is it that it is men that originate these things? Is it some sort of Freudian fantasy with men?

I paid tuition to listen to academics, not local attorneys.

The pleasant thing about Mormon youth is that they spend lots of time in study before they get to college, so following the curriculum guide, they are eminently qualified.

As an RM, the old classes were a breeze and a very refreshing part of the class day. Still should be a breeze for most young people unless the new curriculum goes more in depth. I've always wondered how non members attending felt about these classes. If they didn't grow up with reasonably consistent scripture study or at least familiarity, how was it?

Yes, there does not seem to be a clear path for converts. I suppose we are expected to just grind it out.

 

BYU leadership has voted to remove Book of Mormon, Old/New Testament, Doctrine & Covenants from the list of required religion courses.  They will be replaced with four "cornerstone courses":  

 

1. Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel: A study of the Savior and His roles in Heavenly Father’s plan as taught across all the standard works

2. Teachings and Doctrine of the Book of Mormon: A study of the teachings and doctrine of the Book of Mormon with emphasis on the Savior’s ministry

3. Foundations of the Restoration: A study of the key revelations, doctrine, people, and events of the Restoration

4. The Eternal Family: A study of the central role of the family in the plan of salvation as taught in the scriptures and the words of modem prophets

 

It looks like this is moving forward unimpeded but I am still hoping that someone will have the sense to stop it.  I think that the full contextualized study of the scriptures is important.  And I fear that if this change happens it could be proliferated through institutes, seminary, and then Sunday School.

 

Here's a link to the letter...

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/enigmaticmirror/files/2014/10/Top-Letter.pdf

 

I think such action will weaken the church. One of the strengths of the church that drew me was the amazing facility with the BoM that the Missionaries and other members have. Another member here said that members used to have the same expertise with the Bible until one of the Ezra Taft Benson, changed direction on studying the Bible so intensely. The intensive study has been one of the corner stones of the church for me.

In my estimation the Mormon church is so much better than all the other churches, well, no hip waders are needed.

I just can't figure out why they would think that less study is better?

I have a job interview at a local church this coming Wednesday 10/29. It is an opportunity very hard to get and I am so grateful to be given. I really want to work for a church in any capacity. This is not my home church, but one only a mile away so it’s a great location and a church I have gone to before. It’s a good church with good people about the same size and format as my home church. I really want the job they are going to be interviewing me for. As much as I love working in the health care industry, working at a local church is my dream come true. I will see how this all unfolds, but I am excited and grateful.

Inshallah, this will be fulfilling for you.

I read the enemy in the song as being sin itself. As sin is the one thing in this life I know of that we are allowed to hate without reservation (without spilling it onto the sinner, whether it is ourselves or someone else) it alone is worthy of extermination and is a fine topic for a militaristic hymn.

I'll try to keep this sweet and gentle, but I have very strong feelings on the issue, some of which have not been articulated yet. Having seen more than my share of violence, I practice love and gentleness as much as I can. When I bark at people and am unkind, it feels like satan has won.  America has been in an almost continual state of war since WWII, and it has gotten us lots of enemies.

In looking at scripture, I do not feel that we fight satan. It is by the power of God that his hand is stayed in our lives. Think about the book of Job, and  satan's acts against Jesus,  and the fact that satan had to ask permission to "sift" one of the apostles. In the Lord's Prayer, "deliver us from evil", tells a story.

And, while some denominations blame Eve for the fall, perhaps she and the rest of us simply lacked defenses against  satan?

Feel free to defend your point of view.

It is my private philosophy actually.  Mashallah means, ( All Good Comes from God) After years in Evangelicalism,  so many I knew were ready to out argue someone rather than give love. So, they won an argument, but lost a convert. 

It is now official, Joseph Smith did practice plural marriage. I am sorry Alan. 

 

"In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith married additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage." 

"Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings"

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/the-manifesto-and-the-end-of-plural-marriage?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

 

 

Remember, the Gospel Topics are approved by the First Presidency 

 

"Most of those sealed to Joseph Smith were between 20 and 40 years of age at the time of their sealing to him. The oldest, Fanny Young, was 56 years old. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today’s standards, was legal in that era, and some women married in their mid-teens. Helen Mar Kimball spoke of her sealing to Joseph as being “for eternity alone,” suggesting that the relationship did not involve sexual relations. After Joseph’s death, Helen remarried and became an articulate defender of him and of plural marriage."

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

How come it is mostly men discussing this? It is a male fantasy.

Yesterday we sang hymn 250, "We Are All Enlisted." It's part of a group of hymns I fondly call the Militia Hymns

or the "Pump You Up Hymns".

 

These include "Onward Christian Soldiers," "Behold! A Royal Army," We're Marching On To Glory," "Who's On The

Lord's Side, Who?" "Let Us All Press On," and "Up Awake Ye Defenders Of Zion."

 

The texts often include imagery of war, weapons, defeat, victory, defiance. Given the current zeitgeist of love,

cooperation, and gentle persuasion, is it time for these hymns to be retired? Many of them originated or were adopted

from Protestant revival hymns in the times the church was under actual physical danger or when it was an insular

Utah-centered religion. 

 

Back in the 1970s, my parents served a mission in the Pueblo Indian reservations of Northern New Mexico. 

One Sunday they were singing "For The Strength Of The Hills" in a sacrament meeting in the

home of the Native American branch president. When they came to these words, they were quite embarrassed, given the ethnicity of the meeting's attendees:

 

 

My mother wrote a letter to the First Presidency and Church Music Committee, and that verse was removed in the 1985 edition of LDS Hymns.

 

We might also note that the original words "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame" were

changed in "Praise to the Man."

 

Also, given the very good chance that some day soon we will have missionaries in predominantly Muslim countries and the current exposure of

Muslim investigators to our missionary efforts, would it not be prudent to remove these "Crusader" military-style hymns from our hymnbooks?

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is theologically incorrect.

I have tons of friends in my persona life. I like people and making friends come easy for me. Most of my friends are with in my Christian faith or from one of several churches I am connected to. A few are neither, but still good people.

Last night I went out to dinner with 5 friends. Just a relaxing social dinner to do something on a Friday night. Three where of the faith and 2 where not. All where good people. We talked and joked about alot and just had a good time. None of us drink, but in one case, I don’t think that made a difference.

One of my friends with in the faith got on me for having Mormon friends. I don’t hide who my friends are and some are Mormon even though I am not. This one friend really got bold and in my face about having Mormons as friend and started making comments about things he obviously did not have a clue to but thought he did. Stereotypical and bias stuff that I’ve heard all before, but disregard as trash. He just went on and on to me about how wrong I am to have Mormons as friends. He was sober, but I am think he was also acting like a complete ***.

I tried to shut him down with respect and reasoning, but it was not working. I did not want to get angry or hostile towards him, but I was so getting there. My other friends finally stepped in and help shut this guy down. He seemed to be so upset and intent on causing trouble of this matter that we had him leave. We where out for dinner and a little fun. No troubles so he had to go. My friend apologized to me for all of this, but it was not there fault. It was this guy’s fault. I thanked my friends and the night went on. I don’t think I will be associating with this guy for a while even if he does end up apologizing. He needs to get his head out of his *** before I can deal with him again.

Why do people have to have problems with each other over matters that does not cause problems to begin with? He was mad at me because we are Christians and I have Mormon friends. Really? Well than get mad at me cause I am white and I have black and Hispanic friends to. Get mad at me cause I like blue more than green. I mean, it’s stupid to get mad at someone over things that make no real difference. What difference is it that I have Mormon friends?

Oh, and I didn’t not mean to imply that Mormons are not Christians in this post in how I wrote it I was trying to explain things and not imply anything or be insulting. So if I did imply things, I apologize.

I became Evangelical around 28 years old. My stepfather had been Amish. The devout, Bible reading approach began to cause more trouble and disappointment for me.  I thought that a devout Christian should do what Jesus said to do. Finally my pastor took me aside. Listen, he told me, only about 10% of the congregation reads the Bible. Of them, only about 10% will be devout. So, the only teaching most of them get on the Bible is from me on Sunday, and I only get 20 minutes. And, I have a book that recomends that I only preach on certain subjects, and most of the others are what are called Pew emptying subjects.

We went overseas a few times as temporary Missionaries, and found the work heart breaking. The people in those poor countries trusted us to help them and the amount of help we gave was pitiful. I hope the Mormons do better.

After 9/11 guys like John Hagee and a few others got so hateful and condemning of Muslims that I left Christianity and became Muslim. I have been talking with a guy on Youtube who hates Mormons, and he actually blows his cork some times. He does not realize his loveless approach proves that his faith is bogus.

In the dozen or more denominations I have studied, the Mormons talk about Jesus Christ more than any of them. The thing about so many Christian denominations is that they forget that we are to love God, and to love one another full stop. Anything else is a waste of time and does not bear fruit.

You sound like a nice young lad. I hope that you stay devout and that you study for yourself. Your pastor has certain contractual obligations, so probably can't tell you some things. I hope that you stay around.

My wife has just started to work for a family friend after decades of being a full time mom.  But the needs of her children (now mostly adult) are more financial than physical at the moment, and she has flexible enough work that she can be there for support whenever her children need.  I have noticed growth in her as a person from new experiences, and some joy on her part providing some additional help.  On the other hand the house is messier without Mom riding us to get things done, and there are a few more conflicts with schedules.

 

All in all it is an individual call on the part of the Saints to prayerfully consider what they do for employment, and as long as they are inspired and not selfish I think hard and fast rules on employment of mothers are not necessary.

Well. I can't argue with your approach. And, perhaps there is a way to blend work and child nurturing. Perhaps Capitolism needs to take a back seat to the welfare of the community. I have wanted to study the Hutterites but did not make it there this year. My childhood Amish like experience was harsh and angry.

I do see Mormon women going on to college but have no idea what the demographics are. It seems to me that there are many women would benefit from a Doctorate and extended work in their field. The issue is how to see that the children get attention from Mother and Father that God intended them to have. Perhaps, colleges and work places could be more proactive in facilitating conditions that are conductive to family health, while at the same time allowing both Mother and Father to experience the professional growth they need.

Just take a look at how many achievements women have made, in spite of family responsibilities. As to poverty or wealth, I prefer to be rich. We all fight the Media who promote uses of our wealth that are self agrandizing and harmful to our society.