EllenMaksoud

"Of course we do not live in the Mormon belt".

 

This.  Why does our white collar Mormon belt culturally based dress code apply to foreign cultures? I am not talking about immodest apparel, but certainly, as we have seen from the thread on Gladys Knight and music, there needs to be room to expand our concept of appropriate dress and music in a religious setting so that these other cultures can bring their own individuality with them into the church.

Agreed. In the meekest, most non confrontational of terms, those parts of another culture that are not harmful or immoral have a place in the Mormon Church. When I was in Kenya, it was sad that they seemed to feel that they had to dress like the English Colonists.

The opening of the Middle Eastern world is coming. One day Mormon Missionaries will be standing in the streets of Riyadh speaking about why our God and Allah SWT are the same God. We will work on our differing views of Isa PBUH, (Jesus the Christ), and if we do not allow our differences in clothing and culture to get in the way, we will find that we are brothers and sisters.

Please pardon my bit of derailing. I can not start a thread.

Isn't the obvious answer that (1) the priesthood likely is not in the home, (2) the parents are not likely to have callings in the Church, (3) the kid is likely not going to Primary, and (4) the parents likely don't care too much about the teachings of the Church?

I think you are blowing hot air there Bob. Not being of the diversity set, how would you know what goes on in the homes of those folk? What would you do if a celibate lesbian woman was found to be one of the more active members of a Ward? Yes, the church needs many more members that run around making ridiculous assumptions about those they do not understand.

So bear with me.... In Utah right now there is a huge confrontation going on regarding Marriage Equality. Those in favor of keeping marriage between one man and one woman are saying that gay marriage hurts children. I am curious..... how exactly is a child harmed by having two gay parents who are legally married? So what is the harm to a child who has parents that are married and gay?

It makes me feel oh, so much more secure that those who are sin free can dictate how us sinners live. I don't advocate for gay rights ... marriage, child rearing and so on,  and I know that much harm is done by abusive, molesting, drunken parents than anything else. What I have seen so far is that children raised by same sex parents seem to figure out their own relational sexuality in their own time, independent of their parents.

There are things that religious people do that are considerably more harmful.

Wow, if ever there is a most applicable response to an OP, this has got to be it.

This is odd. I normally attend Sunday wearing Arab Abaya and Hijab. I have Phd Student who has asked to attend Sunday with me who will likely wear Thobe and his Saudi Tribe's male head dress. If anyone says anything to him, unlikely, they will perhaps lose an investigator. Of course we do not live in the Mormon belt.

This came up in another thread, but I thought it could be made into a thread. Is it reasonable that the church and schools like BYU demand white dress shirts with black suit coats, short hair, being clean shaven, and following along with everyone else when giving a talk or blessing and passing the sacrament. When I see pictures of Elder missionaries together it looks like an army and I can see why people can look at pictures like that and think "cult" because of the lack of individuality. Or when we look at those pictures should people instead think "army"? I guess I can understand the everybody wearing white in the temples since that's the Lord's house, but is a person a bad person for passing the sacrament in a green dress shirt? Is that and long hair a sign of rebellion to the church and worthy of being frowned upon? Does the dress code at BYU go too far? Is the church being too repressive in dress or is it acceptable that everyone has to dress and act the same?

I think the mormons are far too liberal.

I am not quite sure we know how to do it. We appeal to a certain type of "market" in the church which are people that are below a level of a kind of advancement, for example, the un- or under employed and others that have potential by not means, like the PEF. But I am not convinced we have "programs" that target the significantly poor and needy. Most of the ministrations that are made to these type of people are done without church resources because they don't really exist for these type of people.

Not to be too indelicate, there is a portion of those who use the humanitarian services of the church who are frankly "using" it with no thought of being members or obeying the Covenants. Those who are Covenant following members, fallen on hard times, are the ones I like to think of when I start feeling peckish and judgmental when I volunteer at the Bishop's Store house.

I have made use of the Bishop's Storehouse a couple times, and while most of the food given out there is quite wholesome, some of it is frankly inedible, and long time customers know the difference.

When I have volunteered at Deseret Industries, the merchandise there is mostly certainly serviceable and helpful to those who buy it.

I do not know of any paid staff there and despite that, the services offered there seem really great.

Because most of them didn't have a religious experience, and because of the bad intelligent design arguments out there. 

 

 

Yes, Stephen Hawking is well educated and intelligent in science .

 

With the hardships that Hawkings has had to endure, I will not judge him.

It seems so many atheists are well educated and intelligent in science and academics. Even Stephen Hawking is an atheist. Why is that? I'm not calling believers uneducated, I'm just saying a lot of atheists are very well educated.

Over the centuries there have been just lots of nutter excesses in the name of God in all churches. Think about the Inquisition, the burnings at the stake, the hateful rulings about who could marry who, and a whole range of forced policies that had nothing to do with the will of God. I've just had a run in with a couple people placed in authority who tried to exercise unrighteous dominion. And, sadly all the good that happens to us can seemingly be erased by one instance of this.

Things like the 6,000 year old Earth, and the insistence on a rigid form of Creationism have just made religious people a laughing stock.

Personally, I think that faith is a gift from God but first we must demonstrate some humility.

We've discussed in the past the idea that Mormons believe that we will get our "own planet".  This idea is still being portrayed to packed houses of theater goers in The Book of Mormon broadway musical, and there has been some debate on whether or not this is a valid representation of LDS belief.

 

I recently came across this quote which I had never seen before.  It's a teaching from President Lorenzo Snow, as published in this manual.

President Snow was visiting a Kindergarten with BY Academy President Brimhall when this happened:

 

 

So while I can understand that many LDS don't like the idea or are hesitant to admit it is a "church teaching", I don't think we can argue that anyone who says it is is being disingenuous.

This is part of a set of doctrines that I struggle with. However when I think about the other things I see happening within the church, I keep my peace.

That is one group, but there are many other Messianic Jews.

I have known Muslims that are Messianic. Actually most Muslims believe in Isa PBUH (Jesus Christ), but they tailor it such that Allah SWT has no helpers, and most believe that at the time of the crucifixion, Judas was crucified in Jesus's place and he was taken up. Some think that would be a problem for the Atonement, but If you think about it carefully, not so much. The Sunnis I know believe the same thing about the end times that Christians do.

 

Your title here is a bit odd:  Why can Jews not believe in the saving grace of Jesus the Messiah?

"Jewish Priests--Who Do Not Even Believe In Jesus--Can They Really Function As Mormon Bishops?"

Why can priests (cohens) among the Jews not believe in the saving grace of Jesus the Messiah?  Are you not aware of the many Messianic Jews?  As for the potential function as an LDS bishop without counselors, did you even bother to read the D&C on that issue?

 

Are you speaking of "Jews For Jesus"?

There's a whole youtube thing called "My name's blah blah and I'm an ex Mormon." They talk about how they left the church. There's some videos too of a former Bishop who left the church for another church. How can someone leave the church if they've felt the spirit? Is Satan really that good at what he does? I've felt the spirit so I would never leave, but all these people have left and many members have gone inactive. I'm happy the church is growing with lots of converts, but we have to also realize that many are also leaving and or going inactive.

I left the church, or thought I did. I even said I did. Yet I decided not to do those ridiculous, angry, self-demeaning, X-mormon tantrums. It just did not feel right. So, I just kept going to church but re-expressed my Muslim by using Hijab and other things. I thought people would get indignant and throw me out, but they did nothing to react to my anger. What?

So, after I stopped acting out and feeling bad, I guess I am Mormon again ... If that is OK?

One thing that is really offensive is that some Mormons who think they have some authority just let it go to their heads and get overbearing and Napoleonic with others. As an example, the moment I realized that I loved the church and that God, through the church had  been extremely kind to me, I went back to acting like a Missionary. In about a year, I was extended a Ward calling of Internet Missionary, and for about another year and a half did a lot of Missionary work on Facebook and other forums.

Then, they started all these groups on Facebook and other places. One group I loved was encouraging Sister Missionaries. After all, it was Sisters back in Kirtland that first spoke to me. If it had been elders, it would not have happened because Muslim women do not speak to strange men.

Then one of the adult leaders of the Sister Missionary groups got to feeling their power and authority too much and blocked me, saying really hurtful things to me.

Then who ever is supervising Mormon contact on Facebook began to deluge me and others with blogs on Facebook. It got so bad that when I opened FB up, almost all of the entries were from Mormons. Excuse me, I have a life.

I eventually closed my FB account. I say this to make it clear that sometimes Mormons can be their own worst enemy.

Science tells us that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, except for the ones that evolved into chickens. There is the problem with the evidence of " dragons " in pretty well every civilized culture.There are references to the Behemoth and Leviathon  in the Bible. There are the Acambaro stones and the Peru Ica stones and the pictographs in Utah etc. as well as the footprints in the Paluxy river, but those are all hoaxes of course. Right?

Maybe the Dragons did not actually breathe fire? Perhaps their breath was so bad that we thought they did?

I think the biological mechanism could exist. I've had heart burn that felt like fire. Then of course there are the so called "Lightening Bugs" that glow, and the "Eels" that will give you a shocking experience.

Some animals, especially fish and water mammals, use electric fields to detect prey using a phenomena right out of Science Fiction.

Remember all those Prehistoric animals are the ones who make our cars putt around.

I think you're nearly there. We believe these are the words of God be cause of that still small voice is telling us(individually) that they are.

Thanks. There are just lots of people running around with "High Need For Authority" and "High need for Order". The more I ignore them, the better it is. We must remember that the Work is much more important than the opinions of others. even those who believe they have authority.

What makes them true?

I just hope that what I read will make me a better person. The truthfulness of the books is not at issue for me. I actually don't like some scripture. I get angry when I read where Paul says that women must be silent in church.  And Surah 4:34 in the Quran, really ruffles my feathers. I openly growl when I read Jacob 2.

Yet, it is clear that I am not to argue with the Holy Spirit.

This is another tangent, this time from the "Why are we still trying to make God in our image?" thread. Personally, I think that the way to know God is to rely on what he has revealed about himself in the Bible, but obviously not everyone here shares that view. So I'm curious: how do you regard the Bible, the BOM and other LDS scriptures? What parts, if any, do you think are reliable sources of information about God? If you think only parts of the scriptures are reliable, how do you determine what's reliable and what isn't? If you think they were all or mostly man-made and not inspired, how do you determine who God is?

I'm from Evangelical and Muslim stock, with a little Amish added for flavor. So, I tend to see the bible as accurate within the limitations of man's ability to accurately pass down stories that are up to 6,000 years old or more. I've seen the JS Bible and do not have major issues with it, in comparison to the KJV. One can either believe in the stock church story of how JS came up with the BOM, or that at the very least he demonstrated intimate knowlege of the Bible in doing the BOM. I do not actually care where a person is on the line between those two points.

We've just had a lesson on the Book of Job and part of the tiresome discussion was about whether it was metaphorical or true. For sake of simplicity I just assume the Bible is true, however lurid parts of it may seem.

The BOM gets a bit traumatic feeling for me because of the constant killing, even more than in the Bible. I've experienced enough violence directly, the I find too much exposure to violence to be re-traumatising.

So, I don't care to get into long discussions about the usefulness and the truth of either the Bible or the BOM. For me, it is a given.

One out of one of is Neurotic, and two out of one of us is Schizophrenic.

For lots of us, the meds just put us in a fog so we can tolerate stupid people. Frankly, no one taught me coping skills as a child and having to learn them as an adult is doubly traumatic. It is now clear that for some of us, the meds actually impede progress.

It seems so many atheists are well educated and intelligent in science and academics. Even Stephen Hawking is an atheist. Why is that? I'm not calling believers uneducated, I'm just saying a lot of atheists are very well educated.

Steven Hawking got more than his share of trials. I am sure that God understands that. We can't judge those who do not believe in God. God knows them intimately.

You should see my pharmacopia.   For better or worse none is for psychological problems.

I'm just nuts and refuse to take my meds.

I read up on wiki about this event and quite frankly it shocked me. What is the official church statement on this event? And did the church leaders at the time have anything to do with it? Someone on another message board who knows I'm Mormon accused our religion of being mass murderers and brought up the Mountain Meadows Massacre as the reason.

Oh, don't worry about the past. Look at what the Church is today. I don't know of anyone who can mount a credible assault on that.

As to ignorant people willing to tell lies about the church, they are plentiful.

I have my own opinion about this, but I wanted to hear from others. I never hear anyone in the Christian community talk about dinosaurs. According the physical evidences, The bones found over many years and locations, they do appear to have lived. According to the science, dinosaurs are dated pre-man. According to my Christian faith, something doesn’t fit here and I have my own opinion of what it is and why. Anyone else have an opinion to share?

We just don't know it all. I was recently told that the dinosaurs did not go extinct. According to an article I saw recently, a Chicken is a T-Rex.

I am still trying to figure out when Dragons existed. I am all about Dragons.

They say if you want to find answers you need to follow the money. I like to study about the last days and oftentimes when I do, I get a little scared. Yes it would be exciting to be alive when the Savior returns but nobody wants to go through the events leading up to that.

 

Reading different LDS blogs and message boards, it seems like a lot of people believe that some BIG event is right around the corner (economic collapse, WW3, TEOTWAWKI, etc. etc.) Although I do believe those things will happen eventually I don't think it will be anytime soon. Here's why:

 

We know that nobody knows the hour of the Saviors return. But if ANYONE knows the general time frame it would be the first presidency and the Q12. So let's assume that they did know that TEOTWAWKI was right around the corner. Would they have spent 2 billion dollars on giving SLC a facelift and rehabbing he Ogden temple, and other such projects, etc? I think not. If the end was that near they certainly wouldn't be wasting all that money on those things. It would be far better spent on other things. I do believe we are ramping up for the church to experience some big growth though (hastening the work) but I think we still have probably 20-30 years of general prosperity and it will be a time of building the kingdom, weeding out the weak hands, apostasy, and growing persecution and wickedness most likely. The world is wicked but not ripe for destruction...yet.

 

The economic indicators all point to a crash at some point but it's all relative. Yes 17 trillion in debt and 100% debt-to-GDP sounds ludicrous. But we all thought that when it was $5 trillion in debt. Who's to say we won't go to 100 trillion before it all implodes? I think the Fed and PTB have a lot more tricks up their sleeves to keep the house of cards propped up for many more years and it will provide a final window of opportunity for the work to hasten. If people are starving and killing each other and the world is too dangerous for missionaries then the work won't hasten very effectively.

 

Just my 2 cents. Opinions?

I was just reading Arabnews.com and Al-Jazeera and found out that what what Westerners call "The Dome of the Rock" (Al-Aqsa Mosque) was invaded by Israeli Soldiers in July of 2014 because Arab youth were rioting and throwing stones. I did not see this story in Western press. According to Evangelical Christian thought, that Mosque must be destroyed and the "Temple of David" must be rebuilt on that spot before the return of Jesus the Christ. To me it is just another turn of the screws to increase the tension.

Say what you thought about the film, who's in it, what's about, etc., and try to include the rating and the reason for its rating in your review so that the parents here can be informed about whether or not they should take their kids to go see it.

Last movie I saw was Warrior, for the third time. An amazing and intense film starring Joel Edgerton, Tom Hardy, and Nick Nolte about two brothers who enter a mixed martial arts tournament, both for a good reason, and their strained relationship with each other and with their father. The intense fight scenes and the acting are phenomenal. I strongly suggest watching it, even if you're not a fan of MMA (I'm not, and I still loved it), because the mixed martial arts fighting is not the focus of the film; it's message is about the bonds of family and the power of forgiveness, and if it doesn't make you cry (or at least get a little emotional) or cheer, then you probably don't have a heart. Highly recommended. (It's PG-13 for "sequences of intense mixed martial arts fighting, some language and thematic material," so it's not for young children. The fight scenes are very brutal at times, the themes are mature and emotional, and the language is brief but strong.)

I plan on seeing the new Hugh Jackman film Real Steel tonight. I'm an avid movie watcher and I work at a movie theater, so I get to see movies there for free, so I may be posting here a lot.

"Game of Thrones". I only started watching it because of clips on the series on Youtube, and what happened to Kaleesi and her Dragons. I like Dragons.  I have now watched all three seasons, and can say that I have wasted about 25 of 30 hours of watching time. I will say that the technical side of it is brilliant, but the writer kills off almost all the good guys, and leaves far too many of the bad guys alive. Perhaps I am just not suited for reality.

A Welsh friend of mine says that UK history is very violent, bloody and ruthless and there are no good guys. AND, there are no Dragons.

I am not asking if Mormons are Christians.  I know that's  been debated ad nauseam.  I am asking if it is possible for ANY mormon to be a Christian.

 

If I accept Christ as my savior, can I be a Christian?  If I accept the Christ of the Bible as my Savior.  If I have a personal relationship with him, know that I am a sinner, and know that it is by his grace that I am saved.

 

I am very familiar with the standard arguments against this concept.  That I worship a different Jesus.  That to be Mormon I must believe in being saved by works and therefore can't receive God's grace.  What I am getting at is, is it possible for any one Mormon to be a Christian in your eyes (and presumably in the eyes of God) while still remaining a Mormon.  What would have to happen in order for this to be the case?

 

(btw - I am not baiting anyone here.  I am attending a Christian university and have been absolutely blown away by how well my Christian friends treat their Mormon classmates.  This really got me thinking about this.)

I wouldn't hold my breath, at least for the masses to accept Mormons as Christians. However, much of their upper echelon folk already do and have faced the shocking discovery that Mormons are better at the EV game than the EV are. I don't have time to find the document today, as I am heading off to a Mormon picnic and do not plan to waddle home until later this evening. It is a paper written by a counsel of Evangelicals bemoaning the fact that Mormons are better at almost every thing than any other church.

Being an EX-Evangelical, I read that paper with considerable mirth. But I actually knew that before the paper came out. When I left Evangelical Christianity I was so frustrated that I joined Islam to get as far away from them as possible and still love God.

My only complaint about the whole matter is that I did not stop by the Mormons first. Perhaps it would have prevented tragic mistakes. Actually, if I had encountered the Mormons in 1974, then the whole family could have been Mormon.

That Mormons could be made to feel inferior at the words of a bunch of fat, hateful, loveless, blowhards is a mystery to me. The ones in my denomination would not know a Christian if one kissed them on the nose.

This age thing is often exploited by anti-Mormons.  It is supposed to be shocking - 14 years old?  That is almost like being a newborn child - NOT.  Do you know how often 14 year old girls are married in today's world?  How about in the last 100 years?  The last 200 years?  How about 500 years ago?  

 

Did you know that Mary was somewhere between the ages of 12 - 14 years old when the angel Gabriel appeared to her i.e. when she was pregnant with Jesus?  

 

Did you know that in 2002 over 7,000 females gave birth to children in the USA?  

 

Suffice it to say, young people have been getting married since the very earliest times of human civilization.  Some of our most important religious individuals have been married or had children in their youth.  When you know the facts that bit of supposedly shocking news is not really very shocking, but is just human. 

In many areas of the world, a woman is marriageable as soon as she gets her menses.