EllenMaksoud

Would anyone care to comment on what Paul's argument is that he's making in 1 Corinthians 15? If one looks carefully at what is being argued, I think it could clear up a lot of the disputes Mormons have with those not Mormon in my perspective.

So, what is your opinion of the differences?

I am not asking if Mormons are Christians.  I know that's  been debated ad nauseam.  I am asking if it is possible for ANY mormon to be a Christian.

 

If I accept Christ as my savior, can I be a Christian?  If I accept the Christ of the Bible as my Savior.  If I have a personal relationship with him, know that I am a sinner, and know that it is by his grace that I am saved.

 

I am very familiar with the standard arguments against this concept.  That I worship a different Jesus.  That to be Mormon I must believe in being saved by works and therefore can't receive God's grace.  What I am getting at is, is it possible for any one Mormon to be a Christian in your eyes (and presumably in the eyes of God) while still remaining a Mormon.  What would have to happen in order for this to be the case?

 

(btw - I am not baiting anyone here.  I am attending a Christian university and have been absolutely blown away by how well my Christian friends treat their Mormon classmates.  This really got me thinking about this.)

I was an Evangelical for 32 years and years later as I learn about scripture, there are some bizarre doctrines in "Christianity" that need to be corrected. Maybe we should ask, "Are Christians, Christian"?

What will become of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in western culture if it does not adapt its doctrines and stances? What if it continues to count homosexuality (or sexual interactions between people of the same gender) as sin? What if it does not ever allow women to hold the priesthood? What if it never provides the answers to satisfy its honest doubters on tough historical issues?

If you look at a lot of the rest of the world, they are imprisoning and killing divergents. I won't make any moral judgements on gays, not that it does not offend God, but God created the world, and if something is wrong, he can fix it ... or give us the tools to do so. I've been around enough now that I suspect something genetic or something happened during pregnancy. So, perhaps our task is to discover what happened and either prevent it or fix it.

SSM would not be a choice for me, but we who pontificate so self righteously about it,  should assume the burden of finding a solution. As to what we do in the interim, I have no idea.

Morally, America does not occupy the high ground. Will we rise to the challenge?

You get out of it what you put into it.

It's only "pointless" to those whose minds and hearts are closed to those things that Heavenly Father wants us to know.

You seem to call me out every time you talk to me. I have blocked you twice before because I did not wish to have a squabble. Contrary to what you might think, I am entitled to my own opinion, and have my own reasons for feeling the way I do about certain things. I would call your attention to the fact that no one else on this board has been as confrontive as you have been. Somehow, I seem to lack the ability to block you now. You are certainly as entitled to your opinion as I am mine but I feel no need to be confrontive with you. Is there something that you do not understand about free choice and personal dignity?

 

One of the most capable and provocative scholars within evangelicalism, Pete Enns (author of The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It), recently wrote a blog on how to read the Bible:

 

Pete Enns, “3 Ways Jesus Read the Bible That Evangelicals Are Told Not to Do,” Huffington Post, Sept 30, 2014, online at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pete-enns/3-ways-jesus-read-the-bib_b_5902534.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592  ,

 

Can we Mormons learn something from the ways in which Jesus Himself read and interpreted His Bible (OT)?  Or is Professor Pete Enns off base?

 

WHAT ?  There was no Bible when Jesus lived ! They had the Pentateuch and that is it. Jesus did not write any of the Bible. Four of the Gospels were circulating in the 1st and 2nd Centuries according to Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Early_Church. Actually, according to this link, none of the process of canonization is as I was taught.

Of Surprise to me, is that it also treats The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with more respect than I have seen other places.

Am curious as to why you conclude this, preferably with links to examples of this behavior.

Again, this is my personal opinion.

In 2010-11, when I was in Kirtland, Ohio and still Muslim, I was doing a lot of volunteer work with CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations) and it seemed like every week that PEW and a couple other organizations were on the internet telling outrageous lies about Muslims and the Middle East.

Those faithful, who love God, need to step back for a moment and think about how war torn the Middle East is. Arab Spring is not over yet. There are lots of cultural Muslims who are sick of the whole mess, and I believe many will be seeking religious expression that does not involve hate and lies. That expression can be in the Mormon church if we choose to engage Middle Easterners in a way pleasing to Heavenly Father.

It seems there are soooooo many different religions and faiths throughout the world. Billions of people are believing in different Gods and following different scripture or in different sects. How did we get so lucky to be in the one true church and how is it that only 15 million people in a 7 billion population world are members of the one true church that was formed in the 1800s after thousands of years of religious history? Count your blessings on how lucky we are in the world because there's a lot of different beliefs out there.

It is because humans are so flawed and I suspect that God's elect are few and spread across religious boundaries. As the time of return of Jesus draws closer we will see amazing things.

The Church is using Pew Research a lot, that means that Pew Research is reliable. 

 

"A new study from the Pew Research Center" 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/pew-religion-losing-influence-america

 

"A new study from the Pew Research Center shows that Mormons" 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-knowledge-of-bible-christianity-evident-in-national-u.s.-pew-study

 

"released today by the Pew Center’s Forum" 

https://www.lds.org/church/news/pew-mormon-study-highlights-christianity-religiosity-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

 

 

Here is something very interesting, a 2009 research 

http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/americans-dont-see-scientific-consensus-on-global-warming/

That is the view of all the scientists in General, not the view of the climatologists (the percentage is higher). 

 

The Theory of Evolution 

http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/evolutionary-theory/

 

Here is a 2006 Research 

http://www.pewforum.org/2007/12/18/science-in-america-religious-belief-and-public-attitudes/

I personally think that Pew is neither following God, nor do their studies show clear thinking.  They were absolutely Islamophobic, and hawkish about terrorists, Iraq and Afghanistan, and the "coalition" tactics there remind me of a herd of cattle loose in the petunias.

Any good wisdom? Should us priesthood brethren be trying to sneak in next time?

It was mostly about the Temple and Baptisms. It was pointless. There were so many good things they could have taught on. Just saying.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865611711/New-verse-for-temple-song-memorializes-teens.html

 

I was touched by this article and then I wondered, "why do we perceive ourselves in heaven to be white clothed, all white?   Seems to me that part of the creation of earth was beauty and that includes color.   IME, the Holy Ghost helps us see colors more vividly. 

 

When we read stories talking about God and angels in terms of white, is that just a reflection of the glory of God, and not really "white" as the only choice?

 

Just wondered how others view a celestial world?   Do we really think that white will be the only color there?

"We shall be as the Angels". KJV  Jesus's words.

Knowing the very narrow range in which our eyes can see,  I wonder if the Angels can sense from at least X-Ray town to Infrared and what it would look like. We seem to be fixated on what we know now, but we know that the Bible says, "For now we see as through a glass darkly..."

It will be so different and it is no surprise to me that even when thinking of Heaven, we are limited.

You have a good heart, Ellen.

Just know that those who said those unkind things will later realize their folly.  I know because I said some very dumb things to people when I was young, and have come to deeply regret those words.

Know also that other religious adherents can be just as intolerant and unkind (perhaps moreso) as the Mormons.  Your daily newspaper and the internet make that clear.

So preach tolerance and compassion, truth and understanding when you encounter such thoughtless and divisive behavior.  Be a force for good in a harsh and unfriendly world.

Thank you for your kind words. Shalom

I have been thinking about this for a while. What is the biggest threat to the church that would or may cause members to fall away, become apostate, enemies?

 

Is it this women and the priesthood thing?

Is it the issue of Same Sex Marriage?

Is it Mormon History and issues with things like polygamy?

Is it the churches stance on morals- things like dress standards, morality, same sex attraction, etc?

Is it something else?

 

Personally I see it as the issue of Same sex Marriage being the biggest threat to the church.

For me personally, I see it as those within the church who excercise unrighteous dominion on others. Here are some examples, I have their names but will not reveal them.

There were a couple of Mormon Men, or they said they were Mormon, on Facebook, who intruded on a discussion on women's rights. I have some very good reasons for not wishing the Priesthood, though I do nothing to interfere with the women who want it. We were having a gentle, thoughtful conversation on the issue when these two guys got on there and started acting like the meanest of red necks. I immediately blocked both of them, but the damage was done.

I was called to be an Internet Missionary, and when I asked what I was to do, my Bishop said to keep doing what I had been doing. I had a very good relationship with numbers of Missionaries, both Elders and Sisters.  In total, I did that work about three years, when a Woman who had started or seemed to be in charge of a Sister Missionary group suddenly blocked me from further participation in the Missionary group after we had an exchange about Sister Missionaries being just as "called" as Elders.  This was really hurtful. I moved on. Several Sister missionaries asked where I went.

I had been really open about my relationship with Muslims because I believe that the church has a future in KSA and other places. I got asked if I was Muslim or Mormon, and told that I would have to choose. If that is the demand, then the person does not understand the mission of Jesus Christ.

Who ever is posting church sponsored spots on Facebook has gone way past the mark. For a while there, when I opened up FB it was mostly Mormon content. I felt smothered, and overwhelmed. I eventually closed that account on FB and opened another after a while. There are NO Mormons on that account. It was extremely upsetting and I eventually told my Bishop that I was done with the church, which he appears to have ignored. 

Since about April of 2011, No non Mormon, or Muslim said unkind things to me. It hurts that it had to be Mormons that did it. I may eventually open that old account up, and if people are still flooding me with content, they will be blocked. There had been many discussions with Evangelicals, Catholics, and even Muslims about God, Allah SWT, and the content of various books in those faiths. No one had ever been unkind to me except Mormons.

As time has passed, the hurt has eased, and I suppose that I am still Mormon, but extremely sympathetic and loving toward Muslims in a way that confuses others, and most certainly me also.

@ BCSpace, I never said a word about my Christian faith being against dinosaurs pre-dating man. I actually made it clear that I was not sharinging my opinions about this, just sharing the topic in a question form to see what other people's opinions are.

 

@ Strappinglad, What?! Some of the things you wrote seem to be very strange. "There is the problem with the evidence of " dragons " in pretty well every civilized culture." <Where did this 'dragon' thought come into play and I do not agree that every civilized culture has evividence there of. And I have never heard a single word anywhere in my entire life and travles about dinosours and chickens. That is just really out there. No offense, but have you been drinking or taking strong medication?

It seems to me that you have been well and truly wound up, or in America one would say that you have been had. 

I have my own opinion about this, but I wanted to hear from others. I never hear anyone in the Christian community talk about dinosaurs. According the physical evidences, The bones found over many years and locations, they do appear to have lived. According to the science, dinosaurs are dated pre-man. According to my Christian faith, something doesn’t fit here and I have my own opinion of what it is and why. Anyone else have an opinion to share?

First, we can not know everything. Is it possible that the stories in the Bible are much older than we think? The popular theory is that the Dinosaurs left us 65 million years ago, and that modern Homo Sapiens appeared around 70,000 years ago.

As I think of it, most people speaking authoritatively about this subject have no real knowledge of the events or science

I believe that Dinosaurs existed, but does the lack of bones actually prove they weren't here 70,000 years ago. Tyrannosaurs are still here, but we know them as Chickens. The horse was around a long time ago, but he was the size of a dog. Now he is this big adorable creature that I used to love to ride in the fields.

We have all this dogma about things but no real proof of much. And for so many of the Dinosaurs, we do not have full skeletons. For many of them, we have a part of a Jaw bone or a thigh bone, and the rest of the animal is postulated using known anatomical ratios from animals that exist today.

When I was an Evangelical, there was this big theory about how the Earth got from Pangea to what we have today. The Creationist theory was dreamed up based upon one scripture in Genesis 10:25 :"Two sons were born to Eber. One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided".

Is the author speaking of the division of cultures and languages at the Tower of Babel, or of the land splitting up and racing across the seas to collide in a huge cataclysm to form the mountains? To me the it is important that I know God, and that I worship him in ways that are pleasing to him. After that one theory about the Earth is as loony as another.

I think the Mormons do a better job than most at divining how we got here. In my opinion where the EV failed, at least in my old denomination, is that they did not focus on Jesus' two commandments, instead tending to dwell on assessing and judging others, often in critical and hurtful ways.

I would be interested in your theory.

I struggle seeing what's interesting in these types of pieces. they seem a dime a dozen these days. The above just seems silly on the face of it. Because we can't find evidence of something that something must be fabricated? Not very helpful.

In the end he ends up, it seems to me, much like the guru from the film he describes. Just someone trying to get a following of like-minded folks, "tricking" them to think like he thinks. I don't see much different.

 

Its just such a pitifully sophomoric view to try to neatly categorize and explain Mormonism or any religion like this. In the end, it just comes off as a ridiculous joke. Besides JS was 20 in 1826, and the "admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions" is laughable. To claim Christ did not exist because there is no evidence that proves he exists then to lazily make claims like this just makes this a joke, if ya ask me. But

On Sunday, I came back to my apartment to find some residents holding a "Peace Meeting" in the Community room. I stepped in to see what this was about. The main part of this meeting was ridiculing God. I repented quickly and left. Hopefully only their part of the building will fall on their heads.

I said the above to show that there are those around who try to ignore God. It gives me the creeps when I encounter it.

They discover Santa, the toothy fairy, and the Easter Bunny aren't real and then they can't handle it anymore and become chronic doubters.

It concerns me that many Mormons I come into contact with are not familiar with the Bible. Right on the front of The Book of Mormon, it says that it is "another testament of Jesus Christ". The Bom does not replace the Bible.  In Psalm 14:1 KJV, it says, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good".

It is the disobedience of sin and the repetition there of that causes, the loss of faith and the hardening of the heart unto sheol.

Hi there,

 

I'm doing an assignment and I've got some questions regarding what mormonism's viewpoint on sin is,

 

All I need is someone to answer the following questions for me,

 

1. What is the definition of sin?

 

1. How did Sin enter the world?

 

1. Are we born with sin?

 

1. How does this affect mankind now?

1. A person of Mormon faith
2. A person outside the Mormon faith (but having another faith)
3. A person who does not have any faith

 

1. What causes us to sin?

 

1. Does everybody:

 

1. Commit sin
2. Have sin in them

 

1. Are there different levels/grades of sin?

 

1. What are the repercussions/punishment of Sin?

1. While mankind is alive on earth
2. After mankind dies

 

1. What covers/makes up for sin?

Thanks in advance:-)

So, you are not Mormon then. You are Evangelical. You have heard of angry ex-Mormons, well I am sometimes angry ex-evangelical.

Because I know what you are looking for, I think, Mormons view the so called "original sin" as an opportunity for Adam and Eve to learn. Mormons do not blame eve for what EV folk see as a debacle.

The answers to the rest of your questions depend upon if you lean toward Calvinism or Armenian-ism.

An important thing you can learn about Mormons is that other than the odd exception, Mormons are the most loving and healing people I have ever encountered, and have correctly identified the message of Jesus the Christ and have sought to put it into every word and deed within human limitations. If everyone were Mormon, there would be almost no need for Mental Health counselors.

Mormon men treat women more equitably than anyone in my experience and that includes Several Ev churches, and Islam.

If you wish to ask me non baited questions, we can talk privately.

http://ldssmile.com/2014/09/24/kind-church-calling-fits/

 

Just a fun little quiz (similar to buzzfeed).

 

Not sure about the accuracy - apparently I should be an Apostle: You are proactive, motivated and feel a massive desire to share the gospel with the world. You are definitely Apostle material and should start memorizing the entire Book of Mormon now.

This was pathetic test. The author of the test showed little if any knowledge of the OT. I will stop there, before I spit flames.

I earnestly seek your prayers.  Saturday night my family and I, and our whole community, suffered a terrible loss.  A very bright light in our lives went out.  My sixteen year old granddaughter, who lved with me, died in a car wreck.  She was a very remarkable young woman who touched many lives.  She is being mourned by her family and literally the entire high school, including students, faculty and administrators.  At every school activity this week, including, home coming activities she is being honored.

 

She was, until her birtday in july, president of her Bee Hive class and was a third year seminary student.

 

I tell you this to let you know how truly remarkable she really was.  For those who knew her our world has suddenly become a darker place.

 

With the loss of my wife not yet three months ago and now this I am a total mess.  I am not alone. My entire family has been very deeply affected.  So please pray for them.

I am quite sorry to hear of your very painful loss. My prayers are for you and those involved.

Normal, traditional gender expression has reproductive and survival value.  That does not mean that avant garde societies cannot have abnormal sexual mores, but there is a cost, as psychiatrist Jonathan Shay has found for the Classical Greek fascination and engorgement in male homosexuality;  Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character (1994), and Odysseus in America: Combat Trauma and the Trials of Homecoming (2002).  So, yes, the rate of abnormal gender expression could increase (as it did in Classical Greece), but with a very high cost.

I have no doubt that my gender expression is pleasing to God. In some ways it would be interesting to live a million generations to see the cause and effect of so many things.

No.  Natural selection within a species is not evolution.  It is adaptation.  The polytypism we see among humans and among canines is merely adaptive, not evolutionary.  Different environments require different adaptive responses.

That is a train of thought that I have not heard of before, and I like it.

Keeping morality out of it for a moment, I have heard some evolutionists speculate that the variation in what we see as gender expression is sort of like a pin ball machine trying out different combinations to see what is most helpful with survival. As Earth fills up with people, should we survive, it would be interesting to see if the rate of non "Normal" gender expression increases.  The final proof would be to see if that rate went down if we suddenly had efficient space travel and Earth emptied out such that there was little or no population pressure. Would this rate fall back to zero? It is all speculation and I will likely never know the answer.

So bear with me.... In Utah right now there is a huge confrontation going on regarding Marriage Equality. Those in favor of keeping marriage between one man and one woman are saying that gay marriage hurts children. I am curious..... how exactly is a child harmed by having two gay parents who are legally married? So what is the harm to a child who has parents that are married and gay?

I don't feel qualified to run the church, but I will say that a very large number of Mormons are pretty sick of the subject. I would guess up to around 1/3 of the membership of the USA. Having said that, when I was in Honduras and Kenya,  I saw no one who was openly gay, or lesbian, and I got the impression that those who got public about it were killed, at least in Honduras.

So, that begs the question, does America occupy the morally high ground? And comparing the life of America with other countries, I have heard history types say that the collapse of America is soon to come.  Maybe Isis does not need to attack us? Will a wide range of marriage types become the norm or will we lapse into a culture where women do not leave the house without an armed man?

It is not random. We inadvertently selected for that trait. Just like the human jaw is getting smaller.

Are you talkin evolution? Gasp !

I think the proposition in the opening thread went to "gay marriage." Not whether a celibate was raising a family, which is somewhat of a contradiction.  I'm pretty sure that if a gay couple went and got themselves married, that their children wouldn't be attending Scouts, Mutual and Primary.   Seems to make sense to me.  And that is an answer to the opening post -- their parents would very likely deny the kids the blessings of the gospel.

Well, if I married another woman, I certainly would not be advertising it. May be you and she just have a difference of opinion in spite of the fact that she recognizes the goodness of the teachings of the church.

I don't have one of those polished, gold plated testimonies of the church, but I stay and obey what I can. I certainly don't discuss my failings with someone like you who could judge me when Heavenly Father does not. I know for a fact that God put me in the church. I don't understand why, but I know he did.  I wonder how many members would excercise unrighteous dominion if they were put in the position to do so.

Perhaps less nattering about the failings of others and more focus on your own?

I hope for the day the LDS will welcome with open arms all faiths to worship in our buildings.  Wearing whatever has meaning in their walk. 

It may be that the time of the "Mormon Uniform" is coming to a close. I am no Prophetess, though God has used them from time to time. It is hurtful, that there does seem to be rather narrow clothing restrictions on the males at BYU, but there is no mention of clothing standards for women, save to say, so pants in Sacrament.

When I first attended services in Kirtland, it was with the observance of full Hijab. Soon, and in good nature, the pressure was on to stop the head scarf, leave the black gloves at home,  and eventually the wearing of knee length dress.

Lately, I have found that at 67 years old there are many areas of my body that do not need exposure to the children. It might frighten them.   Let our thoughts be about how we dress our hearts, not our bodies.