CV75

Since the person is having the experience of progress or moving forward and not the positions (which are acted upon by their passing through), I think the idea of progress or a person moving forward requires their experiences to happen in a certain order within the positions or estates along the eternal round. Abraham 3 places a lot of emphasis on our reckoning in relation to various planets and stars (and their orders) which are set to "give light". I recognize that this is not a literal cosmology but a teaching mechanism about our progress.

I think the idea of progress requires things to happen in a certain order within the eternal round. There is no reference describing existence as one eternal round, only that the Lord's course, which I take to mean His eternal plan of happiness (and its execution), is one eternal round. This is the phrase used in the Book of Mormon and D&C. That the Lord speaks about this in Abraham 3 in the future tense shows the role of and need for linear action and activity: 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them... The Creation took place before the Fall, the Fall before the Lord's advent in the flesh; His advent before His victory and second coming, etc. Probation before Judgement.

Because the spiritual creation of the earth followed the war in heaven, we lived as spirits in another place, in Heavenly Father's presence. As His children, we were organized into a higher order than that which we held previously (See D&C 93: 29 - 31; Abraham 3:21 - 24). Note that unless otherwise specified, intelligences, spirits, man and souls are used interchangeably. And "intelligence" [a divine property of spirits] is not, and is different than, "intelligences" [spirits with intelligence]. D&C 29 Man ["For man is spirit -- verse 33] was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. 31 Behold, here is the agency of man... Abraham 21 I dwell in the midst of them all [intelligent spirits, verses 18, 19]; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God...

That is why we need to look at the whole saying, not just the bolded part: "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." It means that they who honor God's will in their first estate as spirits shall be added upon with a second probationary estate as mortal souls (the spirit and body together); and they who honor not God in their first estate shall not have glory in the second estate as do those who keep their first estate, but shall be cast down as spirits, not souls; and they who honor God's will in their second probationary estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever, that is, in the resurrection as redeemed, immortal souls.

I agree that writing something down in the voice of God does not automatically mean that God spoke those words or gave that revelation. Fortunately, we learn the doctrine of Christ from a variety of sources along life’s path and can freely try it out when haply we find it. I see that Pyreaux provided a context for Joseph Smith's practice. With regards to the theology of meditation, if you were to edit Joseph Smith’s revelations (or the Book of Mormon) removing “voice of God” text, would their meaning change; would they convey any other than the voice, will, mind, word or power of God for abiding in the doctrine of Christ (potential questions over points of doctrine aside)? Regarding oral tradition and "voice", I think it quite possible that Jesus’ disciples remembered themes, teachings, and style that Jesus gave them after His resurrection (much like He did with the Nephites) and by revelation many decades later. I would go so far as to say that He originally wrote down many of His teachings and sermons.

This is a fine working model to draw from the testimony of D&C 93. While truth (knowledge of things of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come) and the light of truth (intelligence, or the light of knowledge of things as they are, were, and are to come) were not created or made, God places, or organizes, them (creates them in that sense) in the sphere in which they can act (exercise agency) which in turn defines their existence (past, present and to come). They act upon the light which is plainly manifest, the light which is in and through all things (D&C 88). The elements are eternal also; there is a difference between intelligence which acts and things which are acted upon but the light of Christ is in them all. The light of Christ comes by His fulness of truth and the light of truth as He exercised His agency to define His existence within the sphere God placed Him, an existence consisting of His infinite atonement from before the foundation of the world (the first 14 verses of Section 93). The rest as we learn it in this estate is the doctrine of Christ. Thus, I believe the veil between the first and second estates are a function of our intelligence, Christ’s intelligence being the greatest of all our Heavenly Father’s children. It seems that beginning very early in His mortal life He consistently pierced the Veil with increasing depth grace for grace in step with His physical ability to articulate it (and at the same time judiciously – perfectly -- withhold and share), its ultimate dissolution symbolized in the renting of the temple veil upon His death upon the cross.

Yes, I think there are many ways to look at it. I find descriptions of either very interesting. The same 3 questions would apply to glory as to location.

Possible in my opinion. In relation to the first estate, (1) from where are they descending ("We ill go down.."); (2) where or what is the space to which they are they descending ("...for there is space there..."); and (3) are the materials in location/area/kingdom (1) or in an area adjacent to location/area/kingdom (2)? Are several estates represented: The post-mortal Father and those pre-mortals selected to work with Him on this; "these" (all of the Father's spirit children: first estate); space; materials; earth; probation (second estate); the added-upon kingdom(s) (other estates).

Bukowski forgot his password and cannot get in -- I am trying to get the Administrators' attention to provide instructions on how he can get it back.

I think the operative term is what they could and could not know on their own. Everyone has limitations on their own and can only find the “fulness” in and through Christ. This is why, whatever we ask of the Lord, comes by grace. What was true of those in the past is true of us today. The doctrine of Christ (2 Nephi 31) is the means to knowledge of that which can only come by grace. He withholds nothing because what comes forth is the result of a mutual process of atonement and agency, and between Him and each of His children in a probationary estate. The probationary estate is temporary; the other elements of this dynamic are eternal. Discovering our limitations and God’s grace change our experience of the probationary, temporary estate until it becomes eternal. I know that must be too simple! We can talk specifics (14-year-old brides) or generalities; the above is a generality.

I see. So these answers depend on the denomination and their interpretation of the Bible, history and tradition as they understand and prefer to apply it.

RE: Conversation Starter Questions. Why does not the Bible have these answers?

I am trying to acknowledge the view that the Nephites were generally more literate than those who think they weren't very literate -- I've done the same for folks who think they were not literate. A town crier is better than a bullet in (the head). My personal opinion (FWIW)? As a population they were not as literate as we are. From the Arnold Freiburg: The Lost Paintings Collection: (used by--?) permission: ...and thus Moroni stole the idea for the standard of liberty (and it was easier reading)

“cast your mind back to what you heard from the reading of the prophet Zenos” is the same but a better way of saying what I did, “remembering what they had read or had read to them before…”

FAIR and BYU cover this better than I, but when I did a Church online search for “synagogue” in the Book of Mormon, the first mention was Mosiah 2:5 (124 BC) – King Benjamin’s temple, with him and everyone else outdoors so he could be heard. Interesting! But this is the same format as a synagogue and Jewish tradition with the congregation facing the king outside the temple (representing the Aron Kodesh which in turn is symbolic of the temple); the king standing on a high substitute bimah /almemar (vs 7 – 8); and the feast of tabernacles as many scholars have pointed out. The last mention is Moroni 7: 1 (401 AD), and there are at least 22 other mentions in between. Nephi knew about them (2 Nephi 26:26, 559 BC). Alma mentions them most. Helaman 3:9 (49 BC); the Jaredites had sanctuaries and places of assembly. Most relevant to the OP, Alma preached in them in 81 BC (Alma 16:13); The people of Ammonihah and the Zoramites used them around that time (up to 74 BC). So, I think regular weekly worship in synagogues is a reasonable expectation. Back to the OP, the Zoramites gathered to worship one day of the week, “the day of the Lord” (Alma 31:12). King Mosiah II divided his priest-king responsibilities in such a way that Alma became the leader of the Church in Zarahemla, but that is a different matter.

That's fine and a good thing for him to have done -- but was it sent forth as individual, personal copies or in the form of a bulletin or proclamation that was read to smaller congregations (perhaps in the synagogues by the high council ) or posted in a few places where anyone who could read (present tense) read (past tense) it? This is not proof of widespread literacy and personal copies, but of access to and familiarity with the content of sacred prophet-king declarations and other scriptures. This case, K'riat haTorah or even "town criers" are more likely means of dissemination.

Per traditional synagogue practice (Jesus did it too).

Literacy does not translate into personal copies of scripture or ignoring the tradition of reading the Torah in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

This is the tradition of Sabbath worship in synagogues, which the Nephites presumably observed no matter how literate.

I did of course, but this event you shared is not about the Zoramites in Ch. 33 but the people of [the city of] Ammoniahah in Ch 14, who were completely obliterated by the Lamanites about 3 years before Ch. 33. Where does it say the records referred to in 14:8 were personal home copies and not from their synagogue or sanctuary (or even mikdash under their circumstances) as I described? It appears that you didn’t consider what is doesn't say .

They were probably about as literate as the Jews at the time of Christ (or before). Alma said they “ought to search the scriptures,” which in their circumstances is as much a turn of phrase and not a literal duty they could carry out. But they could search by remembering what they had read or had read to them before (e.g., verse 3). It would seem that prior to being cast out of their synagogues (which also served as repositories where scriptures would be kept, the Aron Kodesh), they might have had opportunity to read them (verse 14), but certainly had them read to them as part of the Sabbath worship service. The Zoramites had dissented from the Nephites, and while they had perverted their ways of worship by the time they used the bimah (Hebrew "platform" or "stage"/almemar Hebrew "pulpit", the central point in synagogues; it serves as a central point for leading worship services and, most importantly, for the public reading of the Torah) as the "Rameumptom" ("holy stand") described in Chapter 31, we do not know whether or how long they had abandoned the scripture readings or how long the poor had been made poor. It does help to know somewhat of the traditions that have been a part of synagogue worship "forever." Such was the influence of the poor that it destroyed the craft of the more popular part of the community, which is interesting (Ch. 35: 2 - 3), but probably due to convert dissenters from them joining alliance with the Nephites (the rest of the chapter). Those who had been cast out certainly had the scriptures available to them among the Nephites and they could follow up on their studies and learning in bona fide synagogues.

From Moroni 7:15 -19 “For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. …Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ." I think if the person we consider to be a child in that time and place was generally not considered a child, that is not evil, that is the social mos, which does not require knowingly choosing evil over good; similarly, when we consider to be a child the person the people of yore considered to be an adult. Our societies work differently today, otherwise the mores and laws would have been the same back then. We can learn from the past without making excuses for it. We can understand the minds of the past without condemning them. Those who fail to prevent the atrocities we see today and those who fail to resist participating in them are not necessarily exhibiting moral failure and twisted reasoning. They are equally swept up by forces and pressures they cannot perceive or understand which overwhelm their reasoning. They don’t know enough to do better. The powers that be that knowingly orchestrate good and evil, do know enough to do better. I think it easy to see that those who know well the law of the jungle and have had more practice and succeed than those who know the law of altruism.

I see mortal agency in terms of scope and sphere rather than illusion and lack. Our sphere is not God’s sphere, but agency is as much a precious gift as the atonement of Christ. One spirit’s greater intelligence is borne out in its sphere of action, so they can ascend higher and also descend lower than the next spirit behind them in intelligence. But on the whole, our mortal sphere allows everyone in it to use our agency to choose Christ, beginning with the universally human capacity to act upon the light of Christ (whether attributed to him or not) and culminating with acting upon the fullness of His Gospel. The reality and essentiality of agency is borne out in that we may gain intelligence and another sphere of agency after this life, based only on what we begin with and gain here (D&C 130:18 - 19), beginning with a particle of faith. It is said that the atonement of Christ protects agency (and it does), but His “at-one-ment” is the opposite of agency ("separate-ment”). The separateness of agency is reflected in its individuality and autonomy. But more importantly in its application, the act of choosing separates that which is chosen (our existence) from all that which is not chosen. The covenant relationship built upon the atonement of Christ unites that which chosen into one sphere by grace (John 17).

My thought about this is that divine atonement and agency are in existence-sustaining opposition as follows: Christ's atonement reconciles the depths and heights of all that can be chosen ("God and sinners reconciled"). Agency, which God gave us to use freely, achieves any of those depths and heights. We cannot have agency without atonement, and we cannot have atonement without agency. The other opposing forces you mention (certainty and uncertainty, rightness and wrongness, consent and dissent, choice or acting and coercion or being acted upon) are equally essential to each other. In the Nephi-killing-Laban example, a compelling spiritual intervention from above was necessary to break the tension. A higher intelligence needed to compel a receptive lesser intelligence through reason or feeling. This is the beauty of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Historical precedent is not always appropriate to judge the morality of our own choices, the implications being that we need the Spirit to navigate the strange contexts and circumstances in which the Highest Intelligence of all has placed (D&C 93: 30 - 31) us lesser stars (Abraham 3:18 - 19). We may naturally tend to use historical precedent, but it is not requisite and there is a role for faith. I should add that Abraham 3:18 - 19 shows there is no absolutely least star and no absolutely highest star ("there shall be another more intelligent than they"), and the Lord at the same time is "more intelligent than they all" when comparing His sphere with theirs (Kolob, which governs all of the same order as ours, is near unto God, but is not the same sphere or of the same order where He lives).

Can anyone help mfbukowski reset his password? He hasn't been able to participate because of that... when I posed the question to the "Contact Us" message, I got back a terse autoreply that they don't exaplin why posters are banned. LOL Send me the instructions and I will get them to him. Thank you in advance! PS Don't keep the faith: share it!