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For some time now I've been self-identifying as both a Mormon and a Christian Universalist.

And may God bless them for doing so. I just wish (and this is a me thing) that the missionaries had better training in missiology in cross-cultural situations, like we have where I live. I have been here twenty years. I am unaware of one convert to the LDS Church from the missionaries' work here in our village. The spiritual need is great; the spiritual thirst is virtually absent. The missionaries need better training in bridging that gap. Just my opinion as I wish them well in their work. I don't question their sincerity or passion. I question their lack of training in how to do the task to which they are called.

Not really. My concerns about the certainty of LDS beliefs are not at all related to eschatology. My concerns are related to how the certainty of LDS beliefs impacts my relationships with dear friends in the grocery store, the rodeo grounds. and the hospital (where my wife and son) spent months collectively last year and this year. When doctrine negatively impacts relationships and ranks friends as "in or out" in a way that changes with different applications of authority, that concerns me. I hope that makes sense. Best to you, and thanks so very much for allowing me to post here, even though I am more out than in.

I admit (or stipulate) to the fact that I don't understand what the claims of the Book of Mormon are for itself beyond being another testament of Jesus Christ. In trying to understand, I buy and read everything I can find on the subject. It appears that my varied LDS friends have very varied understandings of what its claims are (from the text itself). I have just finished Tom Murphy's new book on the integration of Iroquois myths (Settling Scriptures) into the text of the Book of Mormon. My father pastored a church in Niagara Falls, where he (we) went to the Tuscarora reservation on Sunday afternoons, where he preached. If my memory serves me correctly (I was a child then), he was adopted into the Tuscarora nation in some manner. So, I have more than a casual interest in the subject. I also spent time each summer near Lake Simcoe, where Benjamin F Johnson says he heard many stories from the natives on an island in the lake. Benjamin F Johnson is an important person in the history of the Mexican colonies. I see his descendants virtually every day. So he interests me. As a historian, that interests me. I also am interested in the claims of the Bible for itself and the interpretations of varied literature styles contained therein. I am finishing up William Davis' book, "Visions in a Seer Stone." He approaches the origin of the Book of Mormon from the perspective of a 19th century preacher's methodology. Fascinating information. I like both books in that after having digested them, I am uncertain as to the relationship of the authors with the LDS Church. That is a real positive for me. Neither writes from the perspective of a critic or a zealot. They are academics writing from their expertise. I like that. I am beginning to think that many LDS folks make greater claims for the Book of Mormon than it does for itself. That often happens with adherents and scriptures. Just my own personal perspective is that the D&C is a much more important book for doctrinal polity. The General Handbook is more significant for orthopraxy on a day-to-day basis. It is an interpretation of the General Handbook that led us to be unable to continue worshiping, fellowshipping, and ministering in the CJ ward. That interpretation created soul wounds, so it was powerful. I am intrigued by your use of the term "authentic testament." I am intrigued because I am uncertain (of course) as to your meaning in the use of that phrase. I suppose it is like the word "intrinsic" - it can have several meanings. I would love for you (if you care to) to explain what you mean by "authentic." Oh, and I wonder if your family ever got the date fixed on the tombstone in Dublán? Take care and best wishes.

I think what’s really happening is that since these edge cases were so extremely rare, most people lived their whole lives never having to confront the issue. Now there are a few social influencers trying to get famous by publishing outrageous content, and an entire industry engineered to feed addictive rage in their viewership. That is indisputably going on. The outstanding question is whether the societal order is really breaking down. I’ve been asking for is some evidence that it is, and evidence that laws like that of Kansas will do more good than harm. It’s obvious to me that creating laws that REQUIRE “people who look like men” to use the women’s restroom undermines the very thing it is trying to prevent--uncomfortable confrontations in bathrooms with people who look like they don’t belong there. Rather than being given statistics about the societal order breaking down or even personal anecdotes, I’m just repeatedly told "Lily Tino is a man going into DisneyWorld bathrooms” over and over again. I can understand how somebody might feel that the societal order is breaking down if they are obsessed with videos featuring Lily Tino, Lia Thomas, and drag queens. I never heard of Lily Tino until Smac brought it up here. The reason those videos are shocking is because they are outrageous outliers that are so far afield from what we all see in our normal lives. The shock value is evidence that the societal code is doing fine, not that we are doomed. Maybe that is the biggest difference between Smac and me. Smac thinks the anecdotes of outrageous behavior he curates are impressive evidence. That is why he posts his lists over and over and over. In contrast, I’m a statistician and am not persuaded by anecdotes. Show me statistically significant evidence. Is there any? Or even give me some personal anecdotes. How often do you or the people around you bump into “people who look like men” in women restrooms?

Is this you? https://m.fanfiction.net/u/16874415/OrangeNero

I'm fairly certain you are not sharing true information. Joseph Smith wasn't a Jew, nor was Moroni. I don't believe in a Jewish Illuminati. I think The Jehovah Witnesses' ideas are outdated. Jehovah is not the correct name of God, therefore how important must it be to call Him by that name, and not by Lord, if both are not his name? I say it's not, but they invested too much into that name in their branding to change now. Jehovah/JHVH is more accurately Yahweh/YHWH. Jehovah's Witnesses and Messianic Jews promote Sacred Name Theology, where you must say the correct sacred name, and shouldn't say Lord. The Latter-day Saints (Mormonism) supports Ineffable Name Theology. The Holy Ghost inspired Luke to translate the commandment with the Hebrew YHWH into Greek as G2962 κύριος (kurios) - Lord. The Holy Ghost seems uninterested about how Greeks pronounce His Hebrew name. After the Temple fell in 70 AD, Spoken Hebrew eventually became a dead language; no one today truly knows the correct way to say it. It's an educated guess, so building theology around a guess is a bit strange. Furthermore, contrary to their outdated beliefs, Yahweh is not God the Father, El Elyon, the Most High God, is the Father of Yahweh/Jesus, the Son of God/El. Jesus is never called the Son of the Lord (Kurios/Yahweh/Jehovah), rather he is called the Lord and Son of the Most High God. There are rich, evil ethno-Jewish, individuals influencing things with their money. Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and George Soros are not guided by any religious framework, they are secular or non-practicing people with merely a Jewish heritage. But each are driven by their own unique causes. Thus, in our 2 party system, there are rich conservative megadonors, such as the Koch family, Richard Uihlein, or Timothy Mellon, which exposes the opposite of a Jewish conspiracy. It's actually the evidence they are not all aligned. There is no Jewish pyramid in the North Pole that I'm aware of to be concerned with it. The North Pole is an ocean covered by shifting sea ice with no landmass. The South Pole sits on an ice sheet over 9,000 feet thick. The "pyramids at the poles" idea stems from viral internet conspiracy theories, often fueled by satellite images showing nunataks (natural, pyramid-shaped mountain peaks carved by glacial erosion) in Antarctica's Ellsworth Mountains. But did he make "billions" as profit? No. The property was totally destroyed, leaving Silverstein with billions in financial obligations to rebuild while continuing to pay rent to the Port Authority. The insurance payout $4.55 billion went toward the multi-billion-dollar cost of rebuilding the complex. Silverstein spent years in court cases, lost vast equity, and ended up surrendering control of One World Trade Center back to the Port Authority due to construction costs. People have been claiming the end of days for millennia, usually by pointing out the mild escalation of events. I'm certain it could get much worse, so as always, there is no telling the day or the hour. Modern genetic and anthropological research places the origin of Western Steppe ancestry north of the Caucasus in the Pontic-Caspian steppe rather than inside ancient Persia. Your theory combines unrelated historical facts, geographical regions, and linguistic terms in an incorrect way. Linguistically and historically, Aryan applies strictly to the Indo-Iranian subgroup (peoples of ancient Persia and northern India), Ayrans are not the ancestors of European populations. Indo-European language speakers expanded out of the Pontic-Caspian steppe (north of the Black and Caspian Seas). One branch moved west into Europe, while a separate Indo-Iranian branch moved south and east into Persia and India, not from Persia into Europe. Oh, so you don't condemn all Jews. That's good, I guess. Bytheway, are you a fan of Candas Owens?

I am the one who questioned Joseph Smith heavily... One of my arguments was that "just because a jew tricked you with a stone in a hat does not mean that the same trick must still work today". You can call me Stephan or the english Steven is fine when you speak to me by voice. I also write books as OrangeNero. Good books.

As for symbolic violence, Jesus clearing the temple of the money lenders/changers. The early Christians, Acts of the Apostles, spreading the word of Christ openly and publicly. And Christians, various doctrines openly spreading the word of Christ through the ages. Every 3 to 6 months, Jehovah's witnesses visit the area I live. And also when interest is shown, and by arrangement, LDS missionaries visiting people. Genuine people Evangelising the faith by people in a peaceful manner.

Hi Calm If I remember correctly, that Dario, I think mentioned of a connection with the Netherlands.

Neither am I. Nor should any LDS be. Is there a reason you mention this in the context of a discussion about the certainty of certain LDS beliefs? Just curious.

What name do you go by, is it Stephan?

I think I mixed up this ‘Dario’ with Dario M. Both are European and I wasn’t reading close enough to get the country and other details as I popped in during a short break between phone errands. I did a search on members and we have 3 Dario’s listed, the other one was a DarioJelks and one Darion (member of the Church though). Stephan Dario, how common is Dario? This ‘Dario’ is German and the other was living in the Netherlands and Portugal when he was posting in the board. I can’t remember if the Netherlands was his birthplace or not.

You know your missionaries are still children. And they are poor as F. because they too have to pay your church tax. Now I just met the boys, and they were all marvelous. But they did not yet fully read the bibles. They were not ready and a child should have a good childhood UNTIL 21. It is the foundation of the harsh cruel adult live. It was a joy to play some Forza Horizon 3 and some Microsoft Flight Simulator and some CoD with them. Finally some relief and joy for them.

Now this was heavy stuff, maybe play some games to ease up.

My strongest weapon, for when an evil jedi invades your mind.

Oh and if you think Corona was bad, go google Mirrorbacteria. It will be the end of God's creation.

This sign I found at the end of the old bible I recognize the pyramid with the all seeing eye, the same as on your US Dollar and behind it... the nuclear sign??? The whole page is for this sign. I respect and fear it.

I have something important to tell you. I do not want to anger you with this message. Do not just listen to any voices you hear! The openly available CIA documents on Uri Geller as well as the movie Men who stare at Goats tell us that the mind can be invaded and voices can be sent and received by our heads. There are other gods in this existance besides the god of christendom. The zoroastrian god, also Baal Hamon, the jewish god who seems to be Lucifer if some Rabbies are to be believed, god knows what the dinosaur reptiles before us believed in. Do not forget that this planet belonged to the reptiles, the dinosaurs or dragons and Christian imagery shows angels dominating the dragon and the dragon is clearly mentioned in the bible. Christians shall not have any god besides "god". The Jehovas whitness who I want to join btw. have a name for him its Jehova and that is the name of the Christian god. Now I warn you and you should heed this warning. Be wary of the craftiness and the lies and deceit of the jew. For he rules the 2 party system of the USA and his star is for the pyramid on the north and for the pyramid on the south pole. He claims to control the world. Silverstein made an anti terror insurance of the WTC 1 year prior to the planes hitting it. He made billions and kept the money. This is how far they will go. They even struck the pentagon and since then you have been a vassal state doing their bidding. Half of ISIS came from guantanamo. We live in The end of days. Be aware. They will come for you. And worse, they will divide and conquer, so they will try to make you fight your fellow christian or muslim brothers. This is why I direct my message to every Mormon out there, including the lowest in the hirarchy. Because we the people we share responsibility. And to the white people among you. You are Arians from Persia. You are NOT caucasian and NOT proto indo european. You traveled through the Kaukasus and then claimed europe when the ice subsided. Never forget. Everyone on earth except Jews and possibly Hindus is a fellow christian. The Aztecs fell easily to the spanish because millenia ago we were their masters and that is why their King refused to do war against the spanish. But it ended badly. La noche triste. You can replay the events in Age of Empires 2. Heed my words. The jew will come for you. But not every jew is bad. But Zionism poisons their minds. Wenn du willst, ist es kein Traum! - Theodor Herschel

Hello all, he means me with Dario. I welcome and am thankful for your initiative of creating this thread. A moderator with moderation power must move my content over here because I can't do that.

I think you are correct: we do agree more than we disagree. As for His criteria? I suppose we could look at Matthew 7:21 ("Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."). True. We will each of us be judged individually. And I don't think we need to worry much about what criteria He will be using to judge others, just those He uses to judge us as individuals. Well, that is its primary purpose. I also think it functions as "Exhibit A" in the truth claims of Joseph Smith and the Church itself. If the book is what it claims to be (the "antecedent"), then certain "consequents" follow. Sill a matter of faith, of course. But answering if the Church is what it claims to be is, I think, going to come down to the book as a testament, an authentic testament, of Jesus Christ. We do agree on a lot. I am glad of that. Thanks, -Smac