180 replies to this topic

[Rtifs]

Zakuska, are you suggesting that individual identities will cease in the next life?

[enummaelish]

Quote

It derives from 2Macc 7:28)

I am actually quite a fan of both I and II Maccabees, which is why I took the time and effort to correct your view.  Please see the original post.

[TOmNossor]

Rtifs, on Mar 15 2005, 07:33 AM, said:

The EO teaches deification.  However, not in the same way as the Mormons.  Remember that the Bible teaches us that we become adopted sons and daughters of God (don't remember the verse.  It's in one of the epistles talking about baptism).  Just as I can adopt a child and he/she will become mine, he will never be my biological child.

I wanted to comment on two things on your post.
The first is that I predict that going forward the statement, �?¢â?¬�??The **<insert your given Christian structure>** teaches deification.  However, not in the same way as the Mormons,�?¢â?¬�? will become increasingly popular.  It was not long ago that I saw a number of EO�?¢â?¬â?¢s even running from saying, �?¢â?¬�??The EO teaches deification.�?¢â?¬�?  As Mormonism leavens all of Christianity we all move forward.  One of the wonderful things I find as I do missionary work is that lives are almost always blessed even when conversion does not occur.  We have so much to offer!

Second, Rtifs, when you say, �?¢â?¬�??Just as I can adopt a child and he/she will become mine, he will never be my biological child,�?¢â?¬�? you not only disparage the concept of adoption; but you demonstrate that you do not understand the culture in which the author of Romans/*Paul spoke.  Adoption in the Roman culture was often about choosing a suitable hier in spite of possibly already having a son.  The use of the term Adoption was about making one TRULY a son in every respect often elevating the adopted above the original.  I am not suggesting that this is the case, but I am suggesting that the Bible is trying to tell us something.  Here is a quick quote from a Protestant (not LDS) source,
�?¢â?¬�??We thus learn that Roman adoption did not confer an inferior form of sonship. Rather, an adopted son had all the rights and privileges of a natural-born son. It is this legal-cultural view of adoption, along with the Old Testament ideas of fatherhood and sonship, that seem to be in Paul�?¢â?¬â?¢s view when he picks up adoption as a metaphor to illuminate salvation.�?¢â?¬�?
So unfortunate as it may be, you, Rftifs, may consider adopted sons less; it seems that those Paul was speaking to did not.

Charity, TOm

Edited by TOmNossor, 15 March 2005 - 02:56 PM.

[johnny]

Quote

enummaelish writes,
I am actually quite a fan of both I and II Maccabees, which is why I took the time and effort to correct your view. Please see the original post.

Let me correct your view.  Please see the following teachings of the Catholic Church:

Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God's word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history are rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun. [Cf. St. Augustine, De Genesi adv. Man 1, 2, 4: PL 34, 175]  (CCC338).  


"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Gen 1:1] Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed).  (CCC279).

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": [Gen 1:1] three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.  (CCC290).

"In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was God... all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." [Jn 1:1-3] The New Testament reveals that God created everything by the eternal Word, his beloved Son. In him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth... all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." [Col 1:16-17] The Church's faith likewise confesses the creative action of the Holy Spirit, the "giver of life", "the Creator Spirit" (Veni, Creator Spiritus) , the "source of every good". [Cf. Nicene Creed: DS 150; Hymn Veni, Creator Spiritus; Byzantine Troparion of Pentecost Vespers, "O heavenly King, Consoler"]  (CCC291).

God is unique; there are no other gods besides him. [Cf. Is 44:6.] He transcends the world and history. He made heaven and earth. (CCC212).

The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, [Cf. Pss 33 6; 104:30; Gen 1:2-3] inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God... he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". [St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 2, 30, 9; 4, 20, I: PG 7/1, 822, 1032] Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.   (CCC292).

God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens." [Ps 8:1; cf. Sir 43:28] Indeed, God's "greatness is unsearchable". [Ps 145:3] But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures' inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28] In the words of St. Augustine, God is "higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self". [St. Augustine, Conf: 3, 6, 11: PL 32, 688]  (CCC300).

"The eternal Father created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"[LG 2] to which he calls all men in his Son. (CCC759).

[TOmNossor]

Rtifs, on Mar 15 2005, 09:58 AM, said:

Zakuska, are you suggesting that individual identities will cease in the next life?

I would suggest that just as Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the Father are one and individuals also; so PERHAPS may we be one and individuals

[TOmNossor]

johnny, on Mar 15 2005, 10:43 AM, said:

Quote

enummaelish writes,
I am actually quite a fan of both I and II Maccabees, which is why I took the time and effort to correct your view. Please see the original post.

Let me correct your view.  Please see the following teachings of the Catholic Church:

Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God's word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history are rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun. [Cf. St. Augustine, De Genesi adv. Man 1, 2, 4: PL 34, 175]  (CCC338).  


"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Gen 1:1] Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed).  (CCC279).

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": [Gen 1:1] three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.  (CCC290).

"In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was God... all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." [Jn 1:1-3] The New Testament reveals that God created everything by the eternal Word, his beloved Son. In him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth... all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." [Col 1:16-17] The Church's faith likewise confesses the creative action of the Holy Spirit, the "giver of life", "the Creator Spirit" (Veni, Creator Spiritus) , the "source of every good". [Cf. Nicene Creed: DS 150; Hymn Veni, Creator Spiritus; Byzantine Troparion of Pentecost Vespers, "O heavenly King, Consoler"]  (CCC291).

God is unique; there are no other gods besides him. [Cf. Is 44:6.] He transcends the world and history. He made heaven and earth. (CCC212).

The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, [Cf. Pss 33 6; 104:30; Gen 1:2-3] inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God... he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". [St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 2, 30, 9; 4, 20, I: PG 7/1, 822, 1032] Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.   (CCC292).

God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens." [Ps 8:1; cf. Sir 43:28] Indeed, God's "greatness is unsearchable". [Ps 145:3] But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures' inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28] In the words of St. Augustine, God is "higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self". [St. Augustine, Conf: 3, 6, 11: PL 32, 688]  (CCC300).

"The eternal Father created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"[LG 2] to which he calls all men in his Son. (CCC759).

Johnny, the problem with your quotes are that they derive from what LDS would call apostate developments.
Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr support creation ex materia.  Before Justin Martyr you do not find creation ex nihilo ideas.
Charity, TOm

[johnny]

Quote

TOmNossor writes,
he problem with your quotes are that they derive from what LDS would call apostate developments. Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr support creation ex materia. Before Justin Martyr you do not find creation ex nihilo ideas.Charity, TOm

Do you see any problem where these quotes contradict that what is revealed in Bible?

[Zakuska]

Markk,

From the other thread:

Quote

LDS theology states and teaches men becomes by very nature God, will have there own planet, and will beget their planet with their begotten children. LDS men are taught they will be just like God through eternal progression and obedient to eternal laws that all Gods must follow. David, this is not biblical theology, not even close. Johnny has asked some very real questions that should be answered, saying we sit on Gods throne does not answer LDS theology, in fact, it contradicts it in that LDS theology teaches they can get there own throne, while the bible is clear that we �?¢â?¬�??partake�?¢â?¬�? of His divine nature, which mean we are blessed by Him (Eph. 1). Nowhere does the Bible say that we will become gods, in fact it says we won�?¢â?¬â?¢t. it says there is only one God and that there will never be another.

What is it that makes us gods?

John 10
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

What are you trying to Do Markk...  Break Scripture?  

We are begotten into God by the Gospel... we become his children.  Joint "HEIRS" with Christ.

Why are you limiting what God can do?

Can not God of these very rocks raise up seed to Abraham?

Why cant God make his creation... by very nature what he is?

Is he not powerfull enough?

Perhaps you disagree with Paul...

Quote

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God�?¢â?¬â?¢s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I also disagree with this mischaracterization:

Quote

in fact, it contradicts it in that LDS theology teaches they can get there own throne

Who is it that gives them that throne and sets them up as judges in Israel?


God will always be our God theres nothing we can do to change that.

[Zakuska]

Thank you Tom.  Exactly.

[johnny]

Quote

TOmNossor writes,
�?¢â?¬�??We thus learn that Roman adoption did not confer an inferior form of sonship. Rather, an adopted son had all the rights and privileges of a natural-born son.

Is Jesus a natural-born son or an adopted son?
Do men become adopted son's?

[johnny]

Quote

Zakuska writes,
What is it that makes us gods?

What makes God the Father "God"?

Quote

Why cant God make his creation... by very nature what he is?

Can clay become the potter?

[Zakuska]

Cant the Potter make the clay a potter?  (eg of these very rocks)

Apparently your God makes adoby bricks.

Mine makes Children patterend after his image and likeness. (Gen 1:26; Gen 5:3; Luke 3:38)  Thats why he is "God".

Secondly didnt "clay" become Adam?

"From dust though art to dust shalt though return."

Edited by Zakuska, 15 March 2005 - 11:14 AM.

[emaughan]

Quote

Can clay become the potter?

I know the script you are refering to but you are taking the comparison way to far - God is far more than a "potter".   As others have noted, God is not limited in what He can do for His children.  The key difference between LDS who believe in diefication and others who do not, is that we believe in a God that will not damn the progress of His children who have chosen to follow the gospel of Christ.  Sure diefication would be miraculous, but I believe in a God of miracles who loves His children.

[David Waltz]

Wow, what a great thread!!! I took yesterday off to play on the beach and have missed most of the fun!!! Thought I would start off with some quotes from Catholics who teach deification:

Catholics on deification �?¢â?¬â??

G. H. Joyce

God, says St. Peter �?¢â?¬�??has given us most great and precious promises that by these you may be made partarkers of the Divine nature (2 Pet. i. 4). Startling as the words are, the teaching which we have already considered will have prepared us for them. They signify that the sonship conferred on us through Jesus Christ raises us so far above our creaturely condition, that by it we partake in the life which is proper to the Three Divine Persons in virtue of Their nature. The passage does not stand altogether alone. When our Lord prays to His Father on behalf of the apostles and all who through their word should believe in Him, �?¢â?¬�??that they all many be one, as Thou, Father in Me and I in Thee, that they may be made perfect in one�?¢â?¬�? (John xvii. 22, 23), His words can hardly signify less than this. If our union with God is comparable to that which unites the Father and the Son, it can only be a union bases on a share in the Divine life...The fathers of the Church from the earliest times with one consent take the apostle�?¢â?¬â?¢s words in their literal sense. There is no question of any figurative interpretation. They do not hesitate to speak of the �?¢â?¬�??deification�?¢â?¬�? of man. By grace, they tell us, men become gods. (G.H. Joyce, S.J., The Catholic Doctrine of Grace, London: 1920,  pp. 34, 35)

Matthias Joseph Scheeben

If man is to be reunited to God as his Father, God Himself must raise him up again to His side...God must again draw man up to His bosom as His child, regenerate him to new divine life, and again clothe him with the garment of His children, the splendor of His own nature and glory...this transformation of the will is essentially bound up with the inner elevation of our entire being by the grace of divine sonship and participation in the divine nature...The children of God participate as such in the divine holiness of their Father, in His very nature. (Scheeben, The Mysteries of Christianity, B. Herder Book Co.: St. Loius, pp. 615, 616, 617, 619 - emphasis mine - German first ed. 1865; English ed. 1946, translated from the 1941 German ed.)

Lugwig Ott

The Church prays in the Offertory of the Holy Mass : �?¢â?¬�??Grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His divinity, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity.�?¢â?¬�? Similarly in the Preface of the Feast of Christ�?¢â?¬â?¢s Ascension into Heaven : �?¢â?¬�??He was assumed into Heaven in order that we might be partakers in His divinity.�?¢â?¬�? Cf. D 1021.

According to 2 Peter 1, 4 the Christian is elevated to participation in the Divine nature...Again, the scriptural texts which represent justification as generation or birth from God  (John 1, 12 et seq. ; 3, 5 ; 1 John 3, 1. 9 ; ***. 3. 5 ; James 1, 18 ; 1 Peter 1, 23), indirectly teach the participation of man in the Divine nature, as generation consists in the communication of the nature of the generator to the generated.

From the scriptural texts cited, and from others (Ps. 81, 1. 6 ; John 10, 34 et seq.), the Fathers derived the teaching of the deification of man by grace (theiOis, deificatio). It is a firm conviction of the Fathers that God became man so that man might become God, that is, defied. (Dr. Lugwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 256 - German ed. 1952; English 1955.)


George D. Smith


The application of all this to the question of sanctifying grace will be seen more and more as we proceed, but for the present we simply assert the magnificent truth that grace is not only a positive reality in the soul, not only a reality which no created being could produce, but a reality which in itself is higher than the whole order of created things (even angelic) and is truly divine. This brings us at once to a wonderful phrase of St Peter, who says that we are made �?¢â?¬�??partakers of the divine nature.�?¢â?¬�? Catholic theology has ever clung to the belief that here we have no mere figure of speech but the declaration of a definite fact. We really are made to be partakers of the divine nature. It is not merely that our spiritual faculties of intellect and will establish a special likeness to God in our souls; that is true enough, but over and above this natural likeness to God a wholly supernatural quality is given to us which makes us to be of the same nature as God...St Augustine puts the matter thus: He descended that we might ascend, and �?¢â?¬�??whilst retaining his own divine nature he partook of our human nature, that we whilst keeping our own nature, might become partakers of his.�?¢â?¬�? St Thomas Aquinas, echoing the constant teaching of the past, declares in a passage which the Church uses for the feast of Corpus Christi: �?¢â?¬�??the only-begotten Son of God, wishing to make us partakers of his own divinity, took upon himself our human nature that having become man he might make men to be gods.�?¢â?¬�? And we know how the Church has enshrined this wonderful truth in one of the most beautiful of the prayers at Mass. �?¢â?¬�??O God, who in creating human nature, didst marvellously ennoble it, and hast still more marvellously renewed it, grant that by the mysery of this water and wine we may be made partakers of his Godhead, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, thy Son, our Lord.�?¢â?¬�? (The Teaching of the Catholic Church, edited by Canon George D. Smith, 1960, volume 1, pp. 553, 554.)

Both St John and St Paul exult in proclaiming this act of divine condescension. �?¢â?¬�??Dearly beloved,�?¢â?¬�? the first writes with all the earnestness of the disciple of love, �?¢â?¬�??we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. And everyone that hath this hope in him sanctifieth himself.�?¢â?¬�?...In light of such luminous teaching it is clear that is in a very special sense that we are children of God...Sanctifying grace, as we have seen, is a positive reality infused into the soul by which we are made to share the divine life...By sanctifying grace the very life of God is imparted unto them. (Ibid. pp. 556, 557.)

Catherine Mowry LaCugna

Jesus Christ, the visible icon of the invisible God, discloses what it means to be fully personal, divine as well as human. The Spirit of God, poured into our hearts as love, (Rom. 5:5), gathers us together into the body of Christ, transforming us so that �?¢â?¬�??we become by grace what God is by nature,�?¢â?¬�? namely, persons in full communion with God and with every creature. (God For Us, p. 1.)

Saint Joseph Daily Missal

Deus, qui humanae substantiae dignitatem mirabiliter condidisti, et mirabilius reformasti: da nobis per hujus aquae et vini mysterium, ejus divinitatis esse consortes, qui humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps, Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus. per omnia saecula saeculorum. Amen.

O GOD, Who established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Your Son, our Lord: Who with You lives and reigns in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, world without end. Amen. (Saint Joseph Daily Missal, 1961, pp. 660, 661.)

John Paul II

This is the central truth of all Christian soteriology that finds an organic unity with the revealed reality of the God-Man. God became man that man could truly participate in the life of God�?¢â?¬â?so that, indeed, in a certain sense, he could become God. The Fathers of the Church had a clear consciousness of this fact. It is sufficient to recall St. Irenaeus who, in his exhortations to imitate Christ, the only sure teacher, declared: �?¢â?¬�??Through the immense love he bore, he became what we are, thereby affording us the opportunity of becoming what he is.�?¢â?¬�? (John Paul II, Jesus, Son and Savior, 1996, p. 215 - General audience address September 2, 1987.)

John Paul II �?¢â?¬â?? Dominum et Vivificantem Thus there is a supernatural �?¢â?¬�??adoption,�?¢â?¬�? of which the source is the Holy Spirit, love and gift. As such he is given to man. And in the superabundance of the uncreated gift there begins in the heart of all human beings that particular created gift whereby they �?¢â?¬�??become partakers of the divine nature.�?¢â?¬�? Thus human life becomes permeated, through participation, by the divine life, and itself acquires a divine, supernatural dimension. (The Encyclicals of John Paul II, p. 318.)

John Paul II - Redemptor Hominis The Church has only one life: that which is given her by her Spouse and Lord. Indeed, precisely because Christ united himself with her in his mystery of Redemption, the Church must be strongly united with each man. This union of Christ with man is in itself a mystery. From the mystery is born �?¢â?¬�??the new man,�?¢â?¬�? called to become a partaker of God�?¢â?¬â?¢s life. (The Encyclicals of John Paul II, p. 79.)

More later�?¢â?¬�?¦

[enummaelish]

Quote

Let me correct your view. Please see the following teachings of the Catholic Church:

Thanks Johnny.  But I already knew that this was the perspective espoused by the Catholic Church as a result of adopting Greek philosophy.  This is not Biblical.  As I demonstrated, the ability to create from nothing does not appear in the Bible or the Apocrypha.  

You asked for evidence that your views were not Biblical.  Obviously creation ex nihilo provides the evidence you seek.  Of course, your opinions on the power to create have directly influenced your misunderstanding of the biblical view of deification.

[johnny]

Quote

enummaelish writes,
This is not Biblical. As I demonstrated, the ability to create from nothing does not appear in the Bible or the Apocrypha.

What was before Gen 1:1?

Quote

Of course, your opinions on the power to create have directly influenced your misunderstanding of the biblical view of deification.

Could you explain my misunderstanding further ... maybe with scripture ... thanks.

[Zakuska]

The Primal atom and Caotic Matter.

[enummaelish]

Quote

What was before Gen 1:1

Could you explain my misunderstanding further ... maybe with scripture ... thanks.

That is wonderful.  I did.  I used Genesis 1:1-3 and II Maccabees 7 to illustrate the fallacy of creation ex nihilo. It is neither biblical nor apocryphal.  I went to all that work to discuss these scriptures with you and this is what you offer!  Oh Man!  I�?¢â?¬â?¢m going back to work!

[johnny]

Quote

Zakuska writes,
The Primal atom and Caotic Matter.

How can this be if ....

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God. [Pss 115:16; 19:2; Mt 5:16]  (CCC326).

[johnny]

Quote

enummaelish writes,
That is wonderful. I did. I used Genesis 1:1-3 and II Maccabees 7 to illustrate the fallacy of creation ex nihilo. It is neither biblical nor apocryphal.

You have not explained what was before Gen 1:1?