Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 Nither the gospel nor the Church is a crutch. The Church is the kingdom of God on earth (and in heaven). If you are not in the Church, you are not in the kingdom; and there is no salvation outside of that kingdom, in this world or the next. The Church is Zion, the community of the saved.I know I'm asking for trouble, especially where the hounds of this board are concerned, but the LDS church being the Kingdom of God on Earth and Heaven is a claim and not a fact. I mean absolutely NO disrespect by that statement.My salvation solely dependent upon my faith in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and NOT my beliefs about the LDS church.This is a difference of opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree.
Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 They are closely bound up together. How would you know anything about Jesus at all, without the revelation of Himself that He has given in the scriptures? Faith in the scriptures seems to come before even faith in Jesus Christ.You seem to misunderstand. I am HOPING that scripture is correct about who Jesus IS. My FAITH in Jesus Christ stems from the HOPE that the authors of scripture are telling the truth. To be clear, HOPE in SCRIPTURE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST.
zerinus Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 I know I'm asking for trouble, especially where the hounds of this board are concerned, but the LDS church being the Kingdom of God on Earth and Heaven is a claim and not a fact. I mean absolutely NO disrespect by that statement.The LDS Church on earth is the kingdom of God earth, which has its counterpart in heaven. There is a Church on earth as well as one in heaven. The one in heaven is the kingdom of God in heaven. There is no salvation outside that kingdom, on earth or in heaven. Have you heard of the "general assembly of the church of the First Born"? That is the kingdom of God in heaven.My salvation solely dependent upon my faith in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and NOT my beliefs about the LDS church.This is a difference of opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree.I am going to tell you the truth, whether you like to hear it or not. Your salvation is not solely dependent on your faith in Jesus Christ; it is dependent on keeping His commandments. Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And His commandment is that we be baptised in His name, which means becoming members of His Church.
zerinus Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 You seem to misunderstand. I am HOPING that scripture is correct about who Jesus IS. My FAITH in Jesus Christ stems from the HOPE that the authors of scripture are telling the truth. To be clear, HOPE in SCRIPTURE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST.Faith in Jesus Christ would not be possible without the testimony of prophets and Apostles, whether delivered "live" or as recorded in the sacred writ.
Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 The LDS Church on earth is the kingdom of God earth, which has its counterpart in heaven. There is a Church on earth as well as one in heaven. The one in heaven is the kingdom of God in heaven. There is no salvation outside that kingdom, on earth or in heaven. Have you heard of the "general assembly of the church of the First Born"? That is the kingdom of God in heaven.1) You are making a claim and not stating fact and then applying it to the LDS church.2) Are you talking about the funky Pentecostal organization?I am going to tell you the truth, whether you like to hear it or not. Your salvation is not solely dependent on your faith in Jesus Christ; it is dependent on keeping His commandments. Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And His commandment is that we be baptised in His name, which means becoming members of His Church.Zerinus, I suppose that I have to spell out how salvation works for me. I have to have FAITH first. I show my devotion to my FAITH in JESUS CHRIST by service, compassion, charity, mercy and obedience. However, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that I can do to earn salvation. Not by thoughts, not by actions, not by sacramental ordinances. Jesus SAVES...not actions and ordinances. I'm sorry if this isn't the truth which you agree with but that is not my problem.Suggested Reading:Justification by N.T. Wright
Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 Faith in Jesus Christ would not be possible without the testimony of prophets and Apostles, whether delivered "live" or as recorded in the sacred writ.But this does not require me to misplace my faith in scripture. ALL my faith is in Jesus Christ. My faith is not in the scriptures, it is not in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor is it in any other material, tangible or temporal manifestation.
Calm Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 2) Are you talking about the funky Pentecostal organization?D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
zerinus Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 1) You are making a claim and not stating fact and then applying it to the LDS church.2) Are you talking about the funky Pentecostal organization?None of the above. I think that my meaning was clear. No additional comment is required.I suppose that I have to spell out how salvation works for me. I have to have FAITH first. I show my devotion to my FAITH in JESUS CHRIST by service, compassion, charity, mercy and obedience. However, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that I can do to earn salvation. Not by thoughts, not by actions, not by sacramental ordinances. Jesus SAVES...not actions and ordinances. I'm sorry if this isn't the truth which you agree with but that is not my problem.Suggested Reading:Justification by N.T. WrightThat is Evagelical garbage. My suggested reading to you would be the standard works, which tell a different story.
zerinus Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 But this does not require me to misplace my faith in scripture. ALL my faith is in Jesus Christ. My faith is not in the scriptures, it is not in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor is it in any other material, tangible or temporal manifestation.It requires you to believe in the testimony of prophets and Apostles in order to believe in Jesus Christ.
Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 None of the above. I think that my meaning was clear. No additional comment is required.At least we have cleared up the notion that you are claiming any kind of fact. I'm glad that's over with.That is Evangelical garbage. My suggested reading to you would be the standard works, which tell a different story.I've read the scriptures but I don't read them only through LDS lenses any more. The LDS lense is one interpretation of many. I like to consider them all. And there is nothing LDS apologetics nor the LDS church can say or do or claim to stop me...so neener neener (thanks for the inspiration on this one Nemesis)!!
Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 It requires you to believe in the testimony of prophets and Apostles in order to believe in Jesus Christ.No. It allows me to accept the testimony of the prophets and apostles as their own. I do not rely on their testimony any more than I would my parents or John Nobody on the other side of the U.S.
Damien the Leper Posted August 7, 2012 Author Posted August 7, 2012 D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.This is nothing new nor is it exclusivistic. This is the entire body of Christians...though I'm sure elitism subscribed to by LDS and Reformed adherents would beg to differ.
Calm Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) This is nothing new nor is it exclusivistic. This is the entire body of Christians...though I'm sure elitism subscribed to by LDS and Reformed adherents would beg to differ.I would agree the Church of the Firstborn is more than just those who have been baptized LDS in their mortal lifetimes. It will be all those who have accepted Christ as their Saviour. Edited August 7, 2012 by calmoriah
CASteinman Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 Wow. I truly feel sorry for you.But he is generally correct.
CASteinman Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 This feels true to me. I think you are correct. Universalism feels right...and I think it is the message that bro Poelman was trying to give.The message that he revised and corrected.
CASteinman Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 I know I'm asking for trouble, especially where the hounds of this board are concerned, but the LDS church being the Kingdom of God on Earth and Heaven is a claim and not a fact. It is both a claim and a fact.My salvation solely dependent upon my faith in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and NOT my beliefs about the LDS church.That is not true. It is the Church of Jesus Christ. It is His Church. He has declared if you do not receive His messengers, it is the same as not receiving Him.
CASteinman Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 You seem to misunderstand. I am HOPING that scripture is correct about who Jesus IS. My FAITH in Jesus Christ stems from the HOPE that the authors of scripture are telling the truth. To be clear, HOPE in SCRIPTURE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST.I think that is an excellent view. The scriptures often praise "Faith Hope and Charity". But I prefer to think of it as "Hope, Faith, and Charity" because it seems to me that hope must come first.
Damien the Leper Posted August 8, 2012 Author Posted August 8, 2012 It is both a claim and a fact.You are going to have to do better than LDS scripture, LDS leadership and LDS claims to validate this.Can you do this? Again, my request is not unreasonable.That is not true. It is the Church of Jesus Christ. It is His Church. He has declared if you do not receive His messengers, it is the same as not receiving Him.So YOU say.So the LDS church CLAIMS.You're still going to have to do better than this. I know Mormon apologetics can do better than this.
CASteinman Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 You are going to have to do better than LDS scripture, LDS leadership and LDS claims to validate this.That is false. I do not have to do better than any of that. my request is not unreasonable.Yes, it is unreasonable. So YOU say.Well, not really me. I am actually quoting Jesus. You're still going to have to do better than this. I don't see how anyone would do better than Jesus.
Damien the Leper Posted August 8, 2012 Author Posted August 8, 2012 That is false. I do not have to do better than any of that.Yes, it is unreasonable.No. It is not. You still have the entire Hebrew Bible and New Testament to validate your claim. Can you do this or not?Well, not really me. I am actually quoting Jesus. I don't see how anyone would do better than Jesus.Jesus according to whom exactly? According to Paul? According to James? According to Peter? John? Mathias? Andrew? Barnabas? Judas?
Nemesis Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 Ugghhh this bickering back an forth makes me dizzy. Thread closed.Nemesis
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