Biblical Esoterica And The Temple

[Robert F. Smith]

Read much Asimov?

Are you referring to his Intelligent Man's Guide to the Bible? or to the 6-7 book Foundation series? Taking endowment as a type of secret foundation . . . with a far-reaching plan on how to save all mankind.

[rpn]

I get what a blessing the temple ordinances are, and why they would be necessary for prophets particularly to carry out their agent roles. And I think it is possible that even the savior was endowed during the period of 40 days/nights, as one of the ordinances required on earth. But I tend to think that the current temple purpose to have all receive it, has always been intended as a last dispensation by proxy for most of the world. This is the only time where the records could conceivably be maintained for all those ordinances. And this is the only time in history with sufficient numbers to do the work (and we'll need the entire millenium probably).

[Stone holm]

Are you referring to his Intelligent Man's Guide to the Bible? or to the 6-7 book Foundation series? Taking endowment as a type of secret foundation . . . with a far-reaching plan on how to save all mankind.

I see a lot of the Foundation series in the notion of the Hosts of Heaven holding secret meetings to manipulate history as part of a managed Creation. The attempt to connect those meetings with a Temple Endowment session doesn't click for me. While the Endowment does impart knowledge and other important matters. It is not a meeting of the gods, nor is it even a current communication device connecting with such meetings, at least not while the ark of the covenant is missing. What might happen if the Prophet donned the Urim and Breastplate and entered the Holy of Holies that might be another matter.

[volgadon]

I see a lot of the Foundation series in the notion of the Hosts of Heaven holding secret meetings to manipulate history as part of a managed Creation. The attempt to connect those meetings with a Temple Endowment session doesn't click for me. While the Endowment does impart knowledge and other important matters. It is not a meeting of the gods, nor is it even a current communication device connecting with such meetings, at least not while the ark of the covenant is missing. What might happen if the Prophet donned the Urim and Breastplate and entered the Holy of Holies that might be another matter.

Try out this newer version. http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-sod-of-yhwh-and-the-endowment/

I'll address your concerns later.

[Calm]

(and we'll need the entire millenium probably).

Urroner, IIRC, did the math many years back and given a reasonable number of temples operating 24/6 at full capacity, it came out to something under 300 years...the memory is very hazy so details are vague, but the main point that it wouldn't take even a majority of the Millennium to cover every person ever lived stuck.

However that does not include the time gathering records or keeping them so that might (or might not) add time.

[Stone holm]

Try out this newer version. http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-sod-of-yhwh-and-the-endowment/

I'll address your concerns later.

Yeah, that doesn't really do it either, it one thing to put on a play indicating what a council is like, it's another to actually experience one. Plus, the depiction is more like a series of PPI reports than a Council.

[volgadon]

Yeah, that doesn't really do it either, it one thing to put on a play indicating what a council is like, it's another to actually experience one. Plus, the depiction is more like a series of PPI reports than a Council.

You are missing the point. The endowment is a ritualised portrayal of certain events during the course of which participants are gradually introduced higher and higher into the mysteries. As the participants covenant, more and more is revealed of the true meaning and purpose of God's plan. It all fits remarkably well, but you need to move past your Asimov hangup.

[Stone holm]

You are missing the point. The endowment is a ritualised portrayal of certain events during the course of which participants are gradually introduced higher and higher into the mysteries. As the participants covenant, more and more is revealed of the true meaning and purpose of God's plan. It all fits remarkably well, but you need to move past your Asimov hangup.

Yeah. Still don't see having ritual dramatic education as being the same as being in a strategy council of the gods. Guess I'll stick with Harry Seldon.

[volgadon]

Yeah. Still don't see having ritual dramatic education as being the same as being in a strategy council of the gods. Guess I'll stick with Harry Seldon.

That is ok, you seem to have shown little desire to seriously examine other perspectives. If you insist on thinking in those Asimovian terms (and I do not nock his talent), then of course none of this will make sense. The endowment is God's way of revealing a secret to those who covenant with him- the secret of the meaning of history and the world.

[Stone holm]

That is ok, you seem to have shown little desire to seriously examine other perspectives. If you insist on thinking in those Asimovian terms (and I do not nock his talent), then of course none of this will make sense. The endowment is God's way of revealing a secret to those who covenant with him- the secret of the meaning of history and the world.

Oh I get that. The connection with the ongoing council of the gods is what eludes me. If you look at the quotes they just don't connect.

[Robert F. Smith]

I see a lot of the Foundation series in the notion of the Hosts of Heaven holding secret meetings to manipulate history as part of a managed Creation. The attempt to connect those meetings with a Temple Endowment session doesn't click for me. While the Endowment does impart knowledge and other important matters. It is not a meeting of the gods, nor is it even a current communication device connecting with such meetings, at least not while the ark of the covenant is missing. What might happen if the Prophet donned the Urim and Breastplate and entered the Holy of Holies that might be another matter.

You misunderstand: I was talking of endowment typology -- it is in any case symbolic and allegorical. You mistake the esoteric catechism class for the real thing.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Stone holm]

You misunderstand: I was talking of endowment typology -- it is in any case symbolic and allegorical. You mistake the esoteric catechism class for the real thing.

I guess I did, as we were taking Biblical citations that referred to the "real thing" and then saying that they were analogous to the Temple Endowment which may be a set of secrets, but it is one repeated over and over again -- i doubt that the "real thing" is anything like that and the Biblical quotes didn't sound anything like that either.

[Robert F. Smith]

I guess I did, as we were taking Biblical citations that referred to the "real thing" and then saying that they were analogous to the Temple Endowment which may be a set of secrets, but it is one repeated over and over again -- i doubt that the "real thing" is anything like that and the Biblical quotes didn't sound anything like that either.

Sit zazen sometime, or otherwise meditate on a koan, or other vehicle. The sometimes interative means which we use to obtain a very different end should not be confused with that end. Endless "Hail Mary"s can likewise seem just repetitious, but the ecstatic prophets in ancient Israel, as with the darwishes, find them to be very effective means to an end. It is so easy to get stuck playing a lovely version over and over, even admiring the beauty of the catechism, e.g., here's one of my favorites:

[media=]

(sung by Deanna Durbin, who died this year at age 92)

Edited May 27, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Stone holm]

Sit zazen sometime, or otherwise meditate on a koan, or other vehicle. The sometimes interative means which we use to obtain a very different end should not be confused with that end. Endless "Hail Mary"s can likewise seem just repetitious, but the ecstatic prophets in ancient Israel, as with the darwishes, find them to be very effective means to an end. It is so easy to get stuck playing a lovely version over and over, even admiring the beauty of the catechism, e.g., here's one of my favorites:

[media=]

(sung by Deanna Durbin, who died this year at age 92)

Oh I do not disagree with this as it relates to the endowment, what I objected to was analogising the endowment to the Council. I agree with what you are saying here which is a very different thing.

[volgadon]

Oh I do not disagree with this as it relates to the endowment, what I objected to was analogising the endowment to the Council. I agree with what you are saying here which is a very different thing.

It is not a very different thing. The endowment for most may not be the full, on-going communication, but it is still one secret (like that in Psalm 73) or more which are revealed only there, and only to those who are admitted by covenant.

[Stone holm]

It is not a very different thing. The endowment for most may not be the full, on-going communication, but it is still one secret (like that in Psalm 73) or more which are revealed only there, and only to those who are admitted by covenant.

Very different things, the Council is an ongoing active body, the Temple is an educationally empowerment imparting sacred, hence restricted knowledge. Which may involve knowledge that aCouncil exists, although, I believe that is even a stretch as what is depicted are not the Council but PPI. And I would argue that the Temple endowment is primarily aimed at inducing via rote a special type of religious experience rather than even that much of an educational experience.

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................................

. And I would argue that the Temple endowment is primarily aimed at inducing via rote a special type of religious experience rather than even that much of an educational experience.

I concur. Wholeheartedly.

[USU78]

Very different things, the Council is an ongoing active body

And your evidence for this "ongoing"-ness is?

[Stone holm]

And your evidence for this "ongoing"-ness is?

You think the Council in Heaven just quit when the Creation was done? Possibly, but the quotes in the article associated with this topic are not talking about a Council that has ceased to exist. Do you think God has quit tinkering and tweaking the Creation? I don't.

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert F. Smith, on 19 May 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Are you referring to his Intelligent Man's Guide to the Bible? or to the 6-7 book Foundation series? Taking endowment as a type of secret foundation . . . with a far-reaching plan on how to save all mankind.

I see a lot of the Foundation series in the notion of the Hosts of Heaven holding secret meetings to manipulate history as part of a managed Creation. The attempt to connect those meetings with a Temple Endowment session doesn't click for me. While the Endowment does impart knowledge and other important matters. It is not a meeting of the gods, nor is it even a current communication device connecting with such meetings, at least not while the ark of the covenant is missing. What might happen if the Prophet donned the Urim and Breastplate and entered the Holy of Holies that might be another matter.

Here is another take on the late Isaac Asimov and his connection with the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, and how that relates to the setting up of the Kingdom of God on Earth (malchut Shadday) as a Foundation, the Rebbe's vision, and the work of his Saints (Hasidim) and missionaries, online at http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/1566795/jewish/The-Rebbes-Dream-Chabad-Outreach.htm . Hari Seldon lives!!

[volgadon]

Robert F. Smith, on 19 May 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Are you referring to his Intelligent Man's Guide to the Bible? or to the 6-7 book Foundation series? Taking endowment as a type of secret foundation . . . with a far-reaching plan on how to save all mankind.

Here is another take on the late Isaac Asimov and his connection with the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, and how that relates to the setting up of the Kingdom of God on Earth (malchut Shadday) as a Foundation, the Rebbe's vision, and the work of his Saints (Hasidim) and missionaries, online at http://www.chabad.or...ad-Outreach.htm . Hari Seldon lives!!

Eli Eshed, the Israeli researcher and comic book writer (himself a descendant of the Gaon) suggests that the Foundation series might actually be based on the Gaon of Vilna and his followers. Among other things, their secretive organisation for ushering in the messianic era was called the Foundation...

[USU78]

You think the Council in Heaven just quit when the Creation was done? Possibly, but the quotes in the article associated with this topic are not talking about a Council that has ceased to exist. Do you think God has quit tinkering and tweaking the Creation? I don't.

I'm talking about evidence . . . not what you or I may think irrespective of the presence or absence of evidence.

[Robert F. Smith]

Eli Eshed, the Israeli researcher and comic book writer (himself a descendant of the Gaon) suggests that the Foundation series might actually be based on the Gaon of Vilna and his followers. Among other things, their secretive organisation for ushering in the messianic era was called the Foundation...

Dare I ask whether that was called המוסד ? And was young Yitzhaq a Yeshiva Bocher before going to college?

[volgadon]

Dare I ask whether that was called המוסד ? And was young Yitzhaq a Yeshiva Bocher before going to college?

מוסד היסוד and Asimov the father was an avid amateur researcher of the Gaon. They had a family connection, too.

[volgadon]

A recent study on the Gaon's programmatic vision of redemption is entitled "A World Hidden in the Dimensions of Time." It is as good a way as any to describe the reclusive child genius with an unparralleld command of books and math who sent his disciples on a secret mission to a distant region in order to create the conditions necessary for the world's redemption.