Zina Diantha Hunington Jacobs

[Nighthawke]

Nighthawk,

I know quite a bit about Nauvoo and plural marriage.

The entires you brought up do not portray Henry as a poor provider by any means.  Yours seems a desperate attempt to portray Henry as such.  You are grasping.

Why did he work on someone elses home?  Perhaps he was getting paid, to buy food, you know.

Would you jump ship from your hubby if he were a poor provider and for someone else that was more powerful?

You ignore the fact that Brigham himself at the time in question was not all that great of a provider.  His family had been fairly destiture much due to the man ymissions he left home for.

There is really no way, based on the hsitorical fact we have, to see this other then either a power grab by Brigham, a desertion of a man by his wife for another more appealling and powerful man, or both.

I certianly do not find any godliness at all in this sad tale.

Now, fire away and give me some more of your nastiness.  Seeme to me like that it the best you can do.

Teancum

I'm grasping? Well if you had read Maureen Ursenbach Beecher's Dialogue article "Each in Her Own Time: Four Zinas" you would've noticed that I included her examples as well as a couple of others. He was a poor provider. No roof over her head, no food--not even the basics--and wearing 10 year old clothing her parents gave her. Frankly I'm surprised she stayed with him as long as she did. (edited to correct source... Would've corrected it earlier but was busy rocking my sweet fuzzy-headed three month old sleeping grandbaby when I realized my mistake.)

And, how in heaven's name was it a "power grab" by Brigham Young. What possible "power" did he obtain by marrying Zina??? There were other ladies by the way in the exact same circumstance as Zina, younger even, husband sent on mission during the trek west--so why didn't Brigham marry them too as a "power grab"??? Power grab indeed. That is so lame I can't believe I'm responding to it.

Nastiness? Listen Teackie love, I'm not the one whose post got Edited by admin for civility.

[Nighthawke]

But to defend these actions as they relate to plural marriage as godly?  I don't think so. 

Teancum

Edited by admin for civility.

Fine. Heck if I understood plural marriage in the heinous way you do I'd be shoulder to shoulder with you rejecting it.

But seeing as I don't agree with these chimerical conclusions of yours, I don't have a problem defending it, and neither did the sisters who practiced it and capably defended it for decades.

[awyatt]

Rollo Tomasi said: And, frankly, I find it laughable that you would characterize such an episode as

[William the Conqueror]

2. Don

[William the Conqueror]

I am more favorable to Jedediah Smith and Rollo Ganger than I am to Jedediah Grant and Rollo Tomasi. But perhaps that is just me....

[Jan]

Jan said: Can someone post a link (URL) for Zina's diary? I went through the entire thread and didn't see it (I'm sure I just missed it) so if someone has it handy, can they do me the favor?

You can find a free PDF download of it at this location.

This page lists all BYU Studies articles by Maureen Ursenbach Beecher. She had the journal printed. Look for the article entitled All Things Move in Order in the City: The Nauvoo Diary of Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs.

-Allen

Thanks Allen.

I went to the site and registered (free) to download it (for free). This link may work for others without going through that:

"All Things Move in Order in the City": The Nauvoo Diary of Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs by Maureen Ursenbach Beecher

[Dale]

Does Zina ever sound like Joseph Smith made shameful actions towards her? To me if she cheated on her husband Henry behind his back she doesn't sound a bit ashamed. If no shame was involved the sealing to Joseph Smith wasn't anything for her to be ashamed about. People's imagination about Joseph & polygamy run wild.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Nighthawke]

We could also note that during the period of the diary it is noted that Henry was on at least two missions.  That could add to the difficulty of putting a roof over ones head though Zina does not say anything about it.

Teancum

And how long were those two missions?

Hellooooo? You going to venture an answer to this question Teancum?

[Laban the Younger]

But I have yet to find the arguments compelling.

Perhaps I am really not the man of God like Grant refers to.

I used to think so.

But maybe I was wrong as I just cannot seem to convince myself that this topic we are discussing was godly in any way.

So either it was not or I am not.

Certainly the latter is a high possibility.

.

Trust me, you are not the only person that thinks polygamy is ungodly. Jedediah Grant's quote is the same type of thing we hear from Warren Jeffs today. It's just a guilt trip that works on his followers but not anyone else. Don't feel bad for standing against something you feel was wrong. It is okay to have differences of opinion, that's what forums like this are for. But as you can see, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

[Echt]

We could also note that during the period of the diary it is noted that Henry was on at least two missions.

[Brackite]

Hello Here,

Nighthawke earlier wrote:

Zina writes that she "Bought a small piece of a lot of my[br[other] William Huntington" in September 1844 yet in March 1845 all that Henry has managed to put up is the frame and stone--the house is never finished and they move from place to place in Nauvoo. And have you counted the number of times that they receive charity? Flour, eggs, cash... they do not have enough to eat. We read about Zina "laboring at the [spinning] wheel to procure an honest living", sewing "until 12 o'clock at knight" and braiding hats. What was Henry doing I wonder? Oh hang on, "Henry worked on Joseph Youngs house." What about working on his house?

Nighthawke later wrote:

I'm grasping? Well if you had read Maureen Ursenbach Beecher's Dialogue article "Each in Her Own Time: Four Zinas" you would've noticed that I included her examples as well as a couple of others. He was a poor provider. No roof over her head, no food--not even the basics--and wearing 10 year old clothing her parents gave her. Frankly I'm surprised she stayed with him as long as she did. (edited to correct source... Would've corrected it earlier but was busy rocking my sweet fuzzy-headed three month old sleeping grandbaby when I realized my mistake.)

Nighthawke, why do you feel the need to try to vilify Henry Jacobs??? Please don

[awyatt]

Brackite said: During the time of September of 1844 through March of 1845 Henry Jacobs faithfully served two Missions for the Church. This appears to be the main reason why Henry Jacobs wasn

[Nighthawke]

During the time of September of 1844 through March of 1845 Henry Jacobs faithfully served two Missions for the Church.  This appears to be the main reason why Henry Jacobs wasn

[Blink]

If one discounts the tale of Fanny Alger, Zina was likely one of Joseph's first plural wives, according to familysearch.org. (Fanny preceded Zina by 8-10 yrs, according to some sources). What was it about Zina that caused the Prophet to propose to her, prior to her marriage to Jacob, and to continue to pursue her even after the fact?

The time line is interesting, too:

Jan 31, 1821..... Zina born in Watertown, NY

Aug 1, 1835...... Zina baptised by Hyrum Smith.

Mar 7, 1841...... Zina married Henry Jacobs

Oct 27, 1841..... Zina, 7 mo pregnant with Henry's child, is sealed to Joseph

Jan 2, 1842....... Zina and Henry's son, Zebulon, is born

Feb 2, 1846....... Zina, 8 mo pregnant with Henry's child, married Brigham for time

Mar 22, 1846..... Zina and Henry's 2nd son, Henry, is born.

May 1846.......... Zina leaves Henry and moves in with Brigham

Apr 3, 1850....... Zina and Brigham have a daughter, Zina.

Here's the appropriate website citation: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6552/zinajacobs.htm

Another question: Did Zina ever divorce Henry? I cannot find a record of a divorce. That she left him is well established. But did she ever divorce him?

[Rollo Tomasi]

Allen:

1. Why no response to my first two points?

2. BY

[Teancum]

Fine. Heck if I understood plural marriage in the heinous way you do I'd be shoulder to shoulder with you rejecting it.

Well

I guess we see thing differently then.

But seeing as I don't agree with these chimerical conclusions of yours, I don't have a problem defending it, and neither did the sisters who practiced it and capably defended it for decades.

Some did some did not. I am ok with that. I can specualte that if one believed it was God given they would go at great lengths to defend it. Interestingly Emma did not defend it and even denied it. Thus all were not onthe same page. One tends to defend a chosen lifestyle as well as oppose a rejected one. It is human nature.

Teancum

[Teancum]

Nastiness? Listen Teackie love, I'm not the one whose post got Edited by admin for civility.

Yes. I have noted that the editing and censoring is a bit one sided here.

If my post was edited there are parts of some of yours that should have been.

Whatever

Teancum

[Rollo Tomasi]

One thing that does come through loud and clear from reading the diary is that Henry is sick an awful lot. Most of Zina's entries that mention Henry (and there are relatively few mentions in the 15 months of the diary) comment upon him being sick in one way or another.

Allen:

1. You say there are

[Teancum]

We could also note that during the period of the diary it is noted that Henry was on at least two missions.

[awyatt]

Rollo Tomasi said: 1. Why no response to my first two points?

I apologize; I didn't know we were keeping point-by-point score. Here, however, are the first two points from your previous post--the ones you said I didn't respond do:

1. I can certainly understand why you don

[Golden Tapir]

again (IMHO) we can benefit by bringing these 'doctrines' (practices) Forward. There are some women who think they benefit by (divorcing now) 'moving up' to a more obedient, higher status / income husband. It happened to me.

some say: Well, THAT shouldn't have happened!

others: Hmmmm

me: With our past teachings the way they were presented...Is it a wonder wives abandon husbands/families to follow that mentality? the 'mentality' of a tecahing,doctrine, or practice is a lot more difficult to leave than (just) the church presentation of it....

[Teancum]

5. I guess some think it necessary to vilify Henry as a bad husband and father and less than faithful Church member, in order to justify BY

[Teancum]

I concede that we have no "bill of divorcement," but I recognize that if (and this is a big if) Henry, Zina, and Brigham were in 1847 operating under the same maritial understanding that Brigham spelled out in 1861 that none of the party would have considered a formal "bill of divorcement" necessary. For you to insist that the three play by the rules you understand to be in force today is an example of the fallacy of presentism. I doubt seriously that Henry, Zina, or Brigham felt any compunction to play by our rules, so we should really try our best to understand and accept the rules by which they did play. (We don't need to endorse them or replace our own rules with their rules, but we have no choice but to accept them.)

Allen,

You keep bringing up playing by our rules today. But what about the rules of their day. They certianly were not playing by those rules either.

Of course, they may have been playing by their rules whcih I will concede that THEY believed were of God.

Teancum

[Teancum]

Nonetheless, I have read accounts of some of the women who before Joseph approached them and, if I recall correctly, before the principle of polygamy was presented to them had dreams, visions, or revelations (I can't recall which off the top of my head) that they would be married or sealed to Joseph. If you'd like more information on those, I'll see what I can do, but I suggest you start another thread to deal with that topic, since it is not on-point for the topic at hand.

IIRC One was Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner.

There may have been others but this one sticks out.

Teancum

[cinepro]

before the principle of polygamy was presented to them had dreams, visions, or revelations (I can't recall which off the top of my head) that they would be married or sealed to Joseph.

While this certainly could have been revelation, there are other possibilities as well.

In fact, even in modern times, I've known married Church members who dream or have visions of being married to someone else.

And if you were to talk with single adults in the Church, I think you may find that they regularly have dreams and visions of being married to specific people (even married people). Sometimes these dreams and visions come to fruition. Sometimes the other person hasn't had the same "confirmation", and the prophecy goes unfulfilled.