Meso-Americans Pagans or Christians?

[Dale]

Hi,

Very interesting posts.

The only problem behind Beasties posts is he assumes the problems are unresolveable.

The Book of Mormon survives.

Sincerely,

Dale

[beastie]

I apologize for the length of this post, and realize few will endure to the end. But I simply don't want to take the chance of "avoiding" any questions. There are other points I want to address, including Ben's comments. But that will have to wait a day or two.

Brant,

I really wish you would hear me on this topic, because you keep attributing something to me I never meant, and I think requires such a literalist interpretation of my words as to result in sure distortion, perhaps due listening too much to Juliann

[beastie]

Hi,

Very interesting posts.

The only problem behind Beasties posts is he assumes the problems are unresolveable.

The Book of Mormon survives.

As do telephone psychics.

*note: I am NOT making the BoM the equivalent to phone psychics, but rather using an extreme example to demonstrate the point that the persistence of any notion is not related to its validity.

[juliann]

While ball courts were not built in every single city that was inhabited by Mesoamericans, nor did every single Mesoamerican attend or participate in ball games, the ball games were an integral part of Mesoamerican beliefs and practices, and all Mesoamerican people would understand that.  Even Mesoamericans who had never seen a ball game in real life, or participated in one, would still be well aware of what the ball game is and what it means in Mesoamerican belief systems, even if they are unaware of specific details.

They all know just like we all know about temples, eh? What was the name of their monthly magazine? That must have been a bear to mail...written in big hieroglyphs on stone and all. Where was General Conference held? Oh, wait...they just broadcasted the games! Of course! Or maybe they all just climbed on their private jets and visited to see for themselves? I mean...they couldn't drive through those dang jungles.

Give it up. If you had simply answered the first question I asked I wouldn't even be here. Where were those "Nephite" and "Lamanite" cities? What time periods?

[juliann]

This is the same approach I've seen you utilize on other threads, both here and on Z. You pick around the edges at points you think you can discredit, even if it doesn't make a whit of difference to the larger argument.

Let's see...who was it over on that other thread going on for pages about one footnote? Remember when I said that doing that was a very sharp double edged sword? It will cut you just as deeply as those "sloppy" Mormons.

You do your best to present me as someone who "claims to be an expert" and then try to discredit me on minor points. 

I'm dyin' here.

Every time you show up on a thread, I am truly divided on whether the most productive tactic would be to ignore you altogether rather than get into this annoying little dance with you.

Yeah...but if you did ignore me you would have to dance with someone else playing the same tune. Still waiting for some responses to Brant's questions. I'll be happy to list them for you. They go on for pages. Unanswered.

So when you argue that it would make some huge difference which specific cities are under discussion, what you are really doing is arguing against the idea of a pan-Mesoamerican culture and religion.

I haven't argued anything. I am asking for places and dates. Fundamental stuff. Basic.

  Either will show you he, and brant, places the BoM smack in the middle of Mesoamerica.

Oh, well...there we go. That settles the locations of your cities.

So when you argue that it would make some huge difference which specific cities are under discussion, what you are really doing is arguing against the idea of a pan-Mesoamerican culture and religion.

What I'm really doing is asking for places and dates. What you are doing is the most elaborate tap dance I have ever seen.

Juliann, I'm not going to waste any more time on this sort of game.  You want me to "document" Nephites would have been aware of pan-mesoamerican traits.

I'm asking for places and dates.

What you are asking me is to "prove" that the Nephites weren't some anomolous group of human beings that didn't behave in the same way other groups of human beings historical behave.

I'm asking for places and dates.

[beastie]

Juliann,

Yes, I'd like a list of Brant's unanswered questions, please. In the meantimes, how about answering just one of mine? How do you interpret Coe's statement regarding "all mesoamerican indians"?

Regarding places and dates - I already referred you to the exact page number in Sorenson's book that shows the locations and names of Nephite cities. That is what I am using. I already listed links that demonstrate several of those cities had ball courts. I have shared several quotes from scholars that assert that there is evidence of the ball game - through artifacts such as the balls, reliefs, statues - as well as ball courts, which sometimes were fields - from the Olmec period on. I don't know what you want from me - the month and exact year that the ball games took place? Would you like a list of the players, too?

They all know just like we all know about temples, eh? What was the name of their monthly magazine? That must have been a bear to mail...written in big hieroglyphs on stone and all. Where was General Conference held? Oh, wait...they just broadcasted the games! Of course! Or maybe they all just climbed on their private jets and visited to see for themselves? I mean...they couldn't drive through those dang jungles.

Hmmmm. Let's see. Maybe they used the same method that they used to tell all the Nephites to gather together in one place with enough food to last seven years. Wheel-less chariots pulled by tapirs?

Or maybe they just had the same psychic connection you want me to have when you criticize me for not knowing what Schele says in a book I haven't read (btw, please provide more context for that statement, like the whole paragraph, the more I read about the connection between sacrifice and ball games, the odder Schele's statement, as you have shared it, seems).

Of course, it could have something to do with the settlement patterns of Mesoamerica, which consisted of larger cities which functioned as ceremonial centers (ring a bell? ceremonial center? ball games?) ringed by satellite secondary and tertiary sites, within a day's walk of the primary center.

Nah. Must be the tapirs.

[juliann]

Regarding places and dates - I already referred you to the exact page number in Sorenson's book that shows  the locations and names of Nephite cities.   

Um, you already "proved" him "sloppy". (This is hilarious, Beastie...come on. ) Give your own dates and places. You are the one making up the stories.

I don't know what you want from me - the month and exact year that the ball games took place?

[beastie]

Juliann,

Yes, this is hilarious. I'm supposed to pick the Mesoamerican cities I think could reasonably be Nephite cities?

Ok: none.

When did the ball games take place?

There is speculation they likely took place at specific times related to astronomy. They began during the Olmec period and continued into the post-classic.

When and where did the settlement patterns in Mesoamerica develop into primary centers surrounded by satellite secondary and tertiary centers?

It began during the Olmec phase, which is frequently regarded as the "mother culture" of the other Mesoamerican cultures, and appears to be the continued pattern as they moved into other areas in the region.

Now I'll wait for your list of unanswered questions. And please answer my question about Coe's statement.

[juliann]

Yes, this is hilarious. I'm supposed to pick the Mesoamerican cities I think could reasonably be Nephite cities?

Noooooo. Name your Mesoamerican cities and give the dates and locations so we know what you are trying to talk about.

There is speculation they likely took place at specific times related to astronomy.  They began during the Olmec period and continued into the post-classic.

Now give us dates and places. Like...400 A.D. Like that. See? As for speculation....I thought that was "sloppy" and beneath contempt. Did I miss your meaning on that?

It began during the Olmec phase, which is frequently regarded as the "mother culture" of the other Mesoamerican cultures, and appears to be the continued pattern as they moved into other areas in the region.

Wonderful! Now give dates and places.

[beastie]

No, it's not speculation, based on knowledge, that is sloppy. Sloppy is saying:

The possibility that smelted iron either has been or may yet be found is enhanced by a find at Teotihuacan.  A pottery vessel dating to about AD 300, and apparently used for smelting, contained a

[juliann]

And why should I construct my own list of possible nephite cities when apologists are content with Sorenson's work, and I don't believe ANY Mesoamerican cities qualify? Do you realize how little sense this makes?

So do the "Lamanite" (or whatever the heck you are calling them) cities. Dates and places.

[Dale]

Hi,

Beastie after reading The New Mormon Challenge by Zondervan I feel Book of Mormon scholarship is much more reliable than telephone psychics. I see bad anti-Book of Mormon criticisms all of the time. I find FARMs adequately addresses many subjects I run into. The above book was one of the few scholarly essays to try & integrate & refute top LDS arguments for the Book of Mormons antiquity. Most of what I see is sloppy old stuff against the Book of Mormon that's easily refuted.

The only essay I am ware of that goes after Dr. John L. Sorenson is from New Approaches to the book of Mormon. Deanne G. Matheny wrote Does The Shoe Fit? A Critique of the Limited Tehuantepec Geography. Dr. Sorenson responded to her. Unlike some I didn't find his response evasive at all. I am content with Dr. Sorensons work because I bother to read the critics of his work.

Sincerely,

Dale

[beastie]

Juliann,

I'm not going to spend time on your requests that make no sense within the context of the discussion. If you're interested in mesoamerican history in general, go read a book or read some articles on mesoweb, or one of the many other internet sites that provide information on the topic.

I will, however, provide more documentation on one of the assertions I made earlier regarding settlement patterns of Mesoamerica.

From The Maya, by Michael Coe, p 48, in discussing the evolution of the Maya, makes this statement about the Locona phase (1700-1500 BC):

But more significant than these (my insert

[Brant Gardner]

beastie:

And two, especially in the first part of the BoM, any Mesoamerican city that had the prerequisite degree of social stratification to apply to the BoM was very likely to be a ceremonial center - a place where certain rituals took place, thus making Brant's assertion that none of the Nephites preachers had to mention these practices because they weren't an issue for their people more unlikely.

You were doing so well until you decided to interpret the data according to the bone you are gnawing.

The Book of Mormon doesn't deal with multiple cities beholding to a center (Zarahemla) until the Late Preclassic, bywhich time there is ample evidence of kingship in Mesoamerica (per the list of quotations that you said you would respond to but now have forgooten about - and I can't find the thread and don't want to recreate the list).

Even as a city center that follows archictectual models of surrounding culture (which is pretty typical in world history), there is no reason to suggest that the presence of another culture requires that the Book of Mormon prophets argue against the particular issues you think they should have.

Strangely enough, your suggestion that if a Book of Mormon city were architecturally and structurally modeled after the surrounding area that other influences might accompany those styles is precisely what I have been saying. The architecture embeds both political and social codes - and those are the things that the Book of Mormon prophets actually preached against.

[juliann]

Yes, I'd like a list of Brant's unanswered questions, please.

1.

Beastie assumes: Whatever apostate religion develops, over time, most likely developed in reaction to the people creating a bastardized version of the new religion with elements of the old.

[beastie]

The Book of Mormon doesn't deal with multiple cities beholding to a center (Zarahemla) until the Late Preclassic, bywhich time there is ample evidence of kingship in Mesoamerica (per the list of quotations that you said you would respond to but now have forgooten about - and I can't find the thread and don't want to recreate the list).

Are you contesting the idea that any city that would have the prerequisite population and size to demonstrate social stratification in the middle preclassic would have already been a ceremonial center? (see my Coe quote) So while the BoM may not mention the secondary or tertiary sites in the first part of the text, if this history actually took place in Mesoamerica, they would be sites with secondary and tertiary sites, whether mentioned or not. Do you disagree? And if so, do you have support for this contention? (ie, that a site with the necessary social stratification for the BoM story would be a solitary site, without satellite villages).

I'm not certain why you keep referring back to the evolution of kingship - that's not the issue here. I do not remember at all a list of quotations regarding kings that I never responded to. Fair has a pretty decent search engine, you can't remember any specific terms you may have used? I will gladly look at it again, if I ignored it it wasn't deliberately.

Even as a city center that follows archictectual models of surrounding culture (which is pretty typical in world history), there is no reason to suggest that the presence of another culture requires that the Book of Mormon prophets argue against the particular issues you think they should have.

It weakens your argument that these things would not have been mentioned because they weren't present in Nephite cities. Are you abandoning that?

Strangely enough, your suggestion that if a Book of Mormon city were architecturally and structurally modeled after the surrounding area that other influences might accompany those styles is precisely what I have been saying. The architecture embeds both political and social codes - and those are the things that the Book of Mormon prophets actually preached against.

Which verses best demonstrate your point?

[juliann]

Now I'm hoping you will stop ignoring two very simple requests I've made that are directly related to your assertions on this thread. . . .  However, unless you make this much effort, please be aware I will ignore any future requests for documentation and clarification you may make.  I'm bolding the requests so you won't miss them.

How convenient. I've been ignoring your diversion tactics all along. I asked you a basic question in my first post in the first page of this thead. How obvious can your avoidance tactics be? Why don't you just demand that I send you a $1000 dollars before you answer?

Posted: May 30 2005, 07:49 AM

[Brant Gardner]

beastie:

Are you contesting the idea that any city that would have the prerequisite population and size to demonstrate social stratification in the middle preclassic would have already been a ceremonial center?

Since you are ganging several meanings together in one place that really need more definition, I can't answer your implied question.

1) Were there complex cities in the Preclassic? At one point your were arguing that this was a late development. I see you have changed. That is good. Since you mentioned Nakbe, we can use that as a beginning point for discussion:

"The results of the work at Nakb

[Dale]

Hi,

Beastie why do I need to explain anything by Michael Coe? He isn't my authority. I know he doesn't like the Book of Mormon but many more believers dissagree with him. I also heard he doesn't believe in the Bible either. If somebody wants to debate the validity of other things he says then so be it. Although maybe he has overstated himself on that point.

Sincerely,

Dale

[beastie]

Juliann - The irony. My questions about assertions YOU brought into the thread are now diversionary tactics. Just how many posts did you use up distorting my comment about the universality of the pan mesoamerican traditions? And how many posts did you use up criticizing my statement that sacrifices were associated with ball games? And now that I ask you to back up those assertions, they're diversionary tactics?

I will have to come back later to try, almost assuredly in vain, to demonstrate where I did answer your, and the majority of brant's questions, and add clarification if necessary. (ask and answer policy - lol!)

I will answer one of Brant's that I did miss - the anomolies. Of course archaeologists discuss anomolies - anomolies that they know exist because evidence has been found of those same anomolies. I haven't read any hypotheses or discussions of anomolies for which there hasn't been found evidence, with one exception of a book that is regarded more as pseudo science than science by others in the field (speculating about the association of Maya with some alien race that will return in 2012). Brant, can you provide me an example of one, by a well respected scholar?

[erichard]

The BoM preachers warn against problems that aren't apparent in Mesoamerica - like atheism and universalism.

[juliann]

Juliann - The irony. My questions about assertions YOU brought into the thread are now diversionary tactics. Just how many posts did you use up distorting my comment about the universality of the pan mesoamerican traditions?

Asking for dates and places is a diversionary tactic? Oh, my.

Just how many posts did you use up distorting my comment about the universality of the pan mesoamerican traditions? 

Oh, please. You goofed. I pointed it out. Get over it.

And how many posts did you use up criticizing my statement that sacrifices were associated with ball games?  And now that I ask you to back up those assertions, they're diversionary tactics?

I gave one quote from someone you designated as an expert that said something very plainly and simply. "There is no evidence for this interpretation in any of the ancient or historical sources." Now, Beastie....if you have any ancient or historical sources get off the pot and cite them! You made the claim, your chosen expert says there is no evidence. So it is your burden to prove her wrong Get it?

Brant, can you provide me an example of one, by a well respected scholar?

Yup. This is your answer to the question you need to answer to support your nonsense. You consistently answer a question with a question. Brant gives you more information and documentation than anyone...he answers you patiently. You cannot even answer one of his questions head on.

[juliann]

Actually, the BoM does mention the beginnings of ritualistic bloodletting:

So do ANE historical sources. Think of all of fun stuff we can make up from this! Since we are not required to give dates or places we can just attach this to anything we want. I am sure the Hittite culture and practice was known by all...far and wide...throughout all time. Just had to be 'cause that is just the way it is.

A mass of evidence shows that violent death was thought to cause cultic impurity for the community where it had occurred, and that purification rituals to rid it from blood guilt had to be performed.

[beastie]

First, Brant's response. I will come back later to Juliann's, since I already answered most of those questions.

We should therefore be in agreement that there were complex cities and nascent trends towards social hierachries adn the later institution of kingship that were well underway in the Middle and Late Precleassic (the archaeological periods during which the Book of Mormon takes place.

Yes, although I think the evidence regarding Kaminaljuyu, as far as I can ascertain, is a bit less clear as far as 600 BC is concerned. Do you agree?

Now - as for the idea of ceremonial center: As a definition of a centralized location with dependent farming lands, there is no problem. The early concept of the ceremonial center was that there was little resident population. That earlier concept has been replaced as further studies show more residential areas. Therefore, if you are suggesting that the ceremonial center existed only for religious purposes, you have the wrong definition of ceremonial centers as well as the wrong definition of the nature of ancient societies. Ancient societies didn't have clear demarcations between religion and politics - so assuming the one without the other is an anachronistic interpretation.

I never made any such suggestion about ceremonial centers. In fact, I clearly stated:

This demonstrates the beginning of the settlement pattern I mentioned, wherein secondary and tertiary sites satellite one larger ceremonial center where the elites lived (and others) and where rituals connected with the pan-Mesoamerican religion were conducted. Of course, during this period and into the Middle Preclassic, which lasted until 300 BC, he states:

Sorry. Nice try.

Now to answer the specific question. Do I believe that the city of Nephi fits the general definition of a Mesoamerican ceremonial center? Yes. Do I think that the the outside cultures from which they borrowed their city-form would have come with other baggage? Yes, I do. I think that the baggage that came wiht the structures was sociological and political. I think those were antithetical to Nephite egalitarian ideals and therefore become the focus of Book of Mormon preaching.

Well, we are in agreement, but both should have a problem with your dichotomy between religion versus sociological and political, particularly given your earlier statement, with which I agree:

Ancient societies didn't have clear demarcations between religion and politics - so assuming the one without the other is an anachronistic interpretation

So why, in looking for Mesoamerica in the BoM, are you now willing to make such an anachronistic interpretation? Ie, the Nephites, in their warning and rhetoric against the evil culture, would, for some reason, only focus on generic social and political issues that are mirrored within the Bible and the larger world of JS

[juliann]

I haven