Meso-Americans Pagans or Christians?

[beastie]

Beastie: Coe wrote two essays on the BoM for Dialogue. I don't know how to access those articles online. Perhaps others do.

Cdowis: I do not subscribe to the idea that when someone publishes an article on a subject, he is now an expert on that subject.

You put Coe forth as an expert, an authority, in this matter.

One of the most maddening facets of internet conversations is to follow and participate in a lengthy thread, and then have posters seemingly completely ignore the evolution of the thread, and the context of the statements made therein.

For example, my comments about Michael Coe were within the context of a response to someone who was appealing to the greater authority. In making that comparison, I was fully aware that believing LDS would not accept Coe as an authority in regards to BoM historicity. That was the whole point.

Let

[beastie]

A little bit at a time, and sooner or later I'll catch up.

I mentioned Juliann

[juliann]

Juliann, since you have finally noticed this question from many pages ago, now you can share a few more sentences around your citation from Code of Kings. It doesn

[cdowis]

Beastie quotes Coe:

>All the Mesoamerican Indians shared a number of traits which were more or less peculiar to them and absent or rare elsewhere in the New World:

>hieroglyphic writing,

OK. Consistent with the BOM text

>books of fig-bark paper or deerskin which were folded like screens,

OK. The BOM text mentions that they wrote on "perishable" media as well as plates.

>a complex permutation calendar,

OK. Consistent with the BOM text

>knowledge of the movements of the planets (especially Venus) against the background of the stars,

OK. Consistent with the BOM text.

> a game played with a rubber ball in a special court,

The BOM makes no mention of games or recreation. Santa Rosa is often cited as a possible location for Zarahemla. Did that city have such a ball court? And the sacrifice of the players during the BOM time period.

Just curious, since "All" would include Santa Rosa.

>highly specialized markets,

OK. Consistent with the BOM text.

> human sacrifice by head or heart removal,

The BOM text mentions human sacrifice

>an emphasis on self-sacrifice by blood drawn from the ears, tongue, or penis, and a highly complex, pantheistic religion which included nature divinities as well as deities emblematic of royal descent.

OK. Consistent with the BOM text. There were many religions among the Nephites and the Lamanites, depending on the time period.

>Also in all Mesoaermican religions was the idea of a cosmic cycle of creation and destruction,

OK. Consistent with the BOM text

>and of a universe oriented to the four directions with specific colors and gods assigned to the cardinal points and to the center. (Maya, p 13)

Hmmmm.. See comment above.

I might add that platforms played a role in their religion, also consistent with the BOM text.

Finally you make the observation:

<The Nephites would have mentioned a few of the traits in their polemic rhetoric against the "Lamanites".

I assume that the Nephites prophets and people themselves did make such comments.

<Now Cdowis wants me to support Coe as an authority on the BoM. I never cited Coe as an authority on the BoM.

I stand corrected.

[ScriptureLover]

Beastie:

Ignoring the obvious problem of the detailed monetary system described in Alma 11,

SL:

I am honestly, truly, REALLY not trying to derail this amazing thread, I swear I'm not. But your comment here just stabbed me right in my eye, and I cannot but help wonder what problem?! I have studied this extensively, and actually produced a video about it, and I am not quite sure what problem exists here, because this.......THIS is ONE of the most *powerful* areas for authenticity in the entire BofM historicity, in my own opinion. If desired, I would gladly start a new topic with this. But I am really curious as to what problem occurs here in this magnificent group of verses in the BofM...........

Best,

SL

[beastie]

Another detail that Juliann rode to the rails, pulling the thread to the side once again.

beastie:

The BoM preachers warn against problems that aren't apparent in Mesoamerica - like atheism and universalism. Yet it is silent on topics that were universal in Mesoamerica - like ritualistic bloodletting and sacred ball games.

Now, I honestly have no idea why Juliann objected so loudly and repeatedly to this assertion. Is she interpreting in some odd, literalist fashion, as in every single woman, man, and child in Mesoamerica participated in ballgames? I don

[beastie]

QUOTE (beastie @ Jun 28 2005, 08:19 PM)

Juliann, since you have finally noticed this question from many pages ago, now you can share a few more sentences around your citation from Code of Kings. It doesn

[beastie]

You don't supply what is indespensible support in scholarship. You just keep throwing out more verbiage. Do you really not understand that yet?

I

[beastie]

Beastie:

Ignoring the obvious problem of the detailed monetary system described in Alma 11,

SL:

I am honestly, truly, REALLY not trying to derail this amazing thread, I swear I'm not. But your comment here just stabbed me right in my eye, and I cannot but help wonder what problem?! I have studied this extensively, and actually produced a video about it, and I am not quite sure what problem exists here, because this.......THIS is ONE of the most *powerful* areas for authenticity in the entire BofM historicity, in my own opinion. If desired, I would gladly start a new topic with this. But I am really curious as to what problem occurs here in this magnificent group of verses in the BofM...........

Kerry,

The problem is that there is no evidence of such a monetary system in Mesoamerica. The closest thing they used as "money" was cacao, certain exotic shells, and salt. But they didn't have some standard monetary system as described in the BoM.

[cdowis]

>The problem is that there is no evidence of such a monetary system in Mesoamerica.

The problem is that there is no records extant from that time period. See "Forest of the Kings".

>The closest thing they used as "money" was cacao, certain exotic shells, and salt. But they didn't have some standard monetary system as described in the BoM.

First you say "no evidence", and now you categorically state there was no such monetary system at the time of the BOM. You moved from supposition to certainty.

Please make up your mind. Is there "no evidence" or do you stand by your assertion that no such system existed.

Again, we are speaking of the Nephites, and a specific time period.

[beastie]

CD, You have made these points hopelessly generic. The way you approach them could match just about any culture. For example, the US.

All the Mesoamerican Indians shared a number of traits which were more or less peculiar to them and absent or rare elsewhere in the New World:

>hieroglyphic writing,

OK. We do have writing.

>books of fig-bark paper or deerskin which were folded like screens,

OK. We do write on perishable items.

>a complex permutation calendar,

OK. Consistent with the US

>knowledge of the movements of the planets (especially Venus) against the background of the stars,

OK. Consistent with the US

> a game played with a rubber ball in a special court,

OK. Consistent with the US

>highly specialized markets,

OK. Consistent with the US

> human sacrifice by head or heart removal,

History books mention human sacrifice by Indians.

>an emphasis on self-sacrifice by blood drawn from the ears, tongue, or penis, and a highly complex, pantheistic religion which included nature divinities as well as deities emblematic of royal descent.

OK. Consistent with the US. We perform circumsion, and have many religions.

>Also in all Mesoaermican religions was the idea of a cosmic cycle of creation and destruction,

OK. Consistent with the US

>and of a universe oriented to the four directions with specific colors and gods assigned to the cardinal points and to the center. (Maya, p 13)

Hmmmm.. See comment above.

Finally you make the observation:

<The Nephites would have mentioned a few of the traits in their polemic rhetoric against the "Lamanites".

I assume that the Nephites prophets and people themselves did make such comments.

But didn't record any?

Cd, this approach is somewhat similar to Brant's, who makes hits out of things like "rich people wear fancy clothes" and "Kings pass on their kingship to their sons." These are just too generic and wide spread to be meaningful as a "hit". The kind of hit that is meaningful, in evaluating the dating of a text, is what occured in the dating of the Grolier Codex.

From Breaking the Maya Code by Michael Coe, page 229. The background context is that the historicity of the Grolier Codex was disputed when it was first discovered.

The denouement of the Grolier Codex affair was that it is now considered authentic by almost all those Mayanists who are either epigraphers or iconographers, or both;  that the archaeoastronomer John Carlson has shown that it contains concepts about the planet Venus which have come to light only after it was exhibited in New York

(he means concepts about how Venus was pictured or used in religious documents in Mesoamerica)

See? It's not creating hits out of points so generic that they could "hit" many cultures - it's finding something specific enough to be satisfied that it MUST have originated in the culture of question.

An example that really would have been astounding would have been for the BoM to include details like referring to the elite practice of drawing blood from genitals or tongues, or a detail such as the one religious practice being a ball game. These were not details known during JS' time period.

[beastie]

The problem is that there is no evidence of such a monetary system in Mesoamerica.

The problem is that there is no records extant from that time period. See "Forest of the Kings".

>The closest thing they used as "money" was cacao, certain exotic shells, and salt. But they didn't have some standard monetary system as described in the BoM.

First you say "no evidence", and now you categorically state there was no such monetary system at the time of the BOM. You moved from supposition to certainty.

Please make up your mind. Is there "no evidence" or do you references for your assertion that no such system existed.

LOL! Once again, you make it too generic to be meaningful. Any culture that barters (ie, almost all) would, in your view, be a "hit".

The BoM describes a standardized monetary system. That did not exist in Mesoamerica.

[cdowis]

Beastie, thank you for your response.

>The BoM describes a standardized monetary system. That did not exist in Mesoamerica.

Can you share with us your sources, specific to this time period and place.

BTW, I responded to te Coe quote, and missed your response. I thought that surely you would rip me up.

[beastie]

Beastie, thank you for your response.

>The BoM describes a standardized monetary system. That did not exist in Mesoamerica.

Can you share with us your sources, specific to this time period and place.

Sure, but it will have to wait until after I finish catching up with the horses thread. I should know better than to take on two threads at the same time, while juggling my real life, but oh well. I trust most people understand and accept having to wait a bit for a detailed response.

BTW, I responded to te Coe quote, and missed your response. I thought that surely you would rip me up.

Rip you up for admitting you made a mistake? Not at all. I only rip people up when they admit they made a mistake in such a way as to create the impression that the person who pointed out the mistake is more liable, or worse, in some way, or who puts words in your mouth about that mistake that portray the "messenger" in a worse light. It's like an apology constructed in such a way as to constitute another attack.

If you're talking about something else, I must have missed it, and will try to find it when I come back.

[ScriptureLover]

Beastie:

Kerry,

The problem is that there is no evidence of such a monetary system in Mesoamerica. The closest thing they used as "money" was cacao, certain exotic shells, and salt. But they didn't have some standard monetary system as described in the BoM.

SL:

Ah! All right, I now see what angle you are coming from, thank you. I just wanted to make sure I understood. I suspect you are bringing some mighty interesting assumptions into this, but I shall have to mull it over. I just wanted to clarify is all, not argue with ya.

[cdowis]

>Rip you up for admitting you made a mistake?

What was the point of quoting Coe, if not to question the authenticity of the BOM.

Were you just making conversation?

Precisely what mistake did I make except to show that the BOM is consistent with Coe's list. Perhaps you are upset, and I understand that.

[beastie]

Precisely what mistake did I make except to show that the BOM is consistent with Coe's list. Perhaps you are upset, and I understand that.

I did respond to this by demonstrating that your connections are too generic to be meaningful, and could, with the same approach, equally apply to connecting the BoM to the modern US.

I have no idea why you would think I'm upset, but I'm gettinng used to believers ascribing all sorts of emotions to others in these conversations. Juliann says I'm "livid", you say I may be "upset", Ben, in another thread, said I was "outraged". Where do you guys get this stuff?

[cdowis]

Beastie,

For some reason you quote Coe. You then say that Coe's comment was too "generic" to have any meaning.

OK, let us compare Coe with the Native Americans who lived in the New England states. Let us see how generic they are ==>>

Did they have a complex calendar?

Did they have writing? specifically hieroglyphic style? Did they have perishable writing materials (e.g. codex)

Did they have a good understanding of astronomy?

Did they practice human *sacrifice*?

Did they have commerce? specialized markets?

OK, now show us how Coe's comments fit the Native American at the time and place of Joseph Smith.

If you take the time to look at this, you will find this does not fit North America at all, but specifically Mesoamerica.

[Confidential Informant]

I did respond to this by demonstrating that your connections are too generic to be meaningful, and could, with the same approach, equally apply to connecting the BoM to the modern US. 

Of course, to do so you had to make the connections even more general than what Brant presented. For exaple, Brant's connection of the wearing of fine apparel wasn't just the fact they wore fine clothes, but the connection noted that this problem of stratifications arises in Nephite culture right around the same time it become prevalent in Mayan culture. (Brant will for give me if I'm massacering his arguments).

Moreover, who exactly, are you to declare that a parallel is too generic? What expertise do you have? You keep telling me you have none but your dogmatic proclimations certainly belie that claim. You appear to think you've got quite a lot.

C.I.

[juliann]

Juliann, since you have finally noticed this question from many pages ago, now you can share a few more sentences around your citation from Code of Kings. It doesn

[beastie]

OK, let us compare Coe with the Native Americans who lived in the New England states. Let us see how generic they are ==>>

Did they have a complex calendar?

Did they have writing? specifically hieroglyphic style? Did they have perishable writing materials (e.g. codex)

Did they have a good understanding of astronomy?

Did they practice human *sacrifice*?

Did they have commerce? specialized markets?

OK, now show us how Coe's comments fit the Native American at the time and place of Joseph Smith.

If you take the time to look at this, you will find this does not fit North America at all, but specifically Mesoamerica.

I haven

[Dunamis]

We have let the Mesoamerican threads go because there has been a high signal to noise content because of the data being offered. However, if we have to warn about the squabbling again we will shut them down. I do not want to see any poster discussed no matter how evil they are. Discuss the topic or the topic is going to be closed.

[cdowis]

>You say BINGO to the calendar, while ignoring the fact that Nephites used an entirely different calendric system than the Mesoamericans. Just

[beastie]

CD,

I'd like to read your essay, if you have a link.

Here are some references to the Mesoamerican "currency".

Here are some references to the Mesoamerican economic/barter system that demonstrate there was no standardized monetary system, but instead exotic or highly desirable items were used to barter, such as cacao. (other items used varied according to area or time period, such as exotic shells, which were less valuable along the coast)

From The Ancient Maya by Arthur Demarest, Cambridge Press, 2004, p 153

The use of salt as a medium of exchange (

[cdowis]

Yet another case of flawed logic.

The use of commodities as barter does not preclude a formalized monetary system.

Barter is used today in the modern USA, and has been for a long time, even though we have a monetary system. In certain situations and locations, a commodity is more desireable than money.

An example is in Japan and Germany, after the war. Cigarettes, soap, chocolate had a more immediate demand than even American dollars.