Legalization of Polygamy

[Krisjhn]

I know that this is purley conjecture and a game of what if, but sometimes games of what if can be the most fun.

With the advance of homosexual rights and gay marriage in this country I do not think it will be too long before other forms of marriage will be considered legal such as polygamy.

In fact, there are already cases being brought before the courts to allow the practice of polygamy. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600112789,00.html Though this case failed it will only be a matter of time before someone wins the right to practice their religion [or how ever they couch their arguement].

So the question is, will the church allow polygamy to be practiced once the legal limitation has been removed?

[Confidential Informant]

I know that this is purley conjecture and a game of what if, but sometimes games of what if can be the most fun.

With the advance of homosexual rights and gay marriage in this country I do not think it will be too long before other forms of marriage will be considered legal such as polygamy.

In fact, there are already cases being brought before the courts to allow the practice of polygamy. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600112789,00.html Though this case failed it will only be a matter of time before someone wins the right to practice their religion [or how ever they couch their arguement].

So the question is, will the church allow polygamy to be practiced once the legal limitation has been removed?

The answer is, obviously, no.

Why? Because you are approaching the question from the wrong perspective.

It is quite possible in the future that polygamy will be "decriminalized." In fact, (as I've stated many times) I'm convinced that the case of Lawrence v. Texas already decriminalized it.

However, just because a polygamous relationship is no longer "illegal" doesn't mean that it is state sanctioned.

The Church will not "allow" polygamy in that instance because even though no longer "illegal" that doesn't make it legally sanctioned. Polygamist would simply be viewed as "living together" just as many monogamous individuals do but the Church doesn't accept that relationship either.

Since LDS believe in being legally and lawfully married, they would not accept the practice.

However, if you can convince the government to actually recognize plural marriages as legitimately sanctioned relationships, the question changes a bit, but I still doubt the practice will make a comeback.

C.I.

[truth dancer]

Hi Krisjhn....

So the question is, will the church allow polygamy to be practiced once the legal limitation has been removed?

My opinion... first I doubt there could ever be an allowance in our legal system today for men to have multiple partners but not women. (As it should be... )

(I'm not advocating for multiple partners just equality here...)!

But I doubt the church will ever allow polygamy. It is my observation that it would be much too controversial and the growth of the church would take a HUGE nose dive! I think there is a strong emphasis on healthy marriages and strong families and polygamy basically destroys both IMO.

Just a guess...

~dancer~

[rpn]

I doubt that the leaders would receive revelation to authorize polygamous marriages for members of the church before the Second Coming. I suppose it is at least possible in those countries which now allow polygamy (which makes people have to renounce their polygamous wives in order to be baptized --- I don't know precisely how this is done now or what is required but I know that no one who practices polygamy can be baptized now) may no longer have to renounce their polygamous wives.

I don't think that the reason it was done away with was solely because of the law, but because it had outlived its usefulness. And it is a life style that is difficult to sustain righteously.

[Krisjhn]

However, if you can convince the government to actually recognize plural marriages as legitimately sanctioned relationships, the question changes a bit, but I still doubt the practice will make a comeback

I am sorry I was not clear in my initial post. This is exactly what I mean. For polygamy to become legal and reconized form of marriage by the state.

If this does happen why won't the practice make a comeback. Is it out of fear of rejection? Though we do many things that are out of the mainstream i.e. no coffee, temple practices, etc. those things are not considered "far out" by those in the mainstream. However I think the practice of polygamy would be highly looked down upon by the mainstream. So is this the reason why it would not make a comeback?

On another note Muslims would be happy if polygamy were to be legalized.

KJO

[Krisjhn]

My opinion... first I doubt there could ever be an allowance in our legal system today for men to have multiple partners but not women. (As it should be... tongue.gif )

(I'm not advocating for multiple partners just equality here...)!

But I doubt the church will ever allow polygamy. It is my observation that it would be much too controversial and the growth of the church would take a HUGE nose dive! I think there is a strong emphasis on healthy marriages and strong families and polygamy basically destroys both IMO.

Dancer, I will agree with you on one point. I think in our country what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Though I gotta admit if my wife wanted to take another husband I would take serious umbrage with that. As she would with me if I wanted a second wife.

But I disagree with your statement that polygamy is the destroyer of strong families. I think if you have 43 spouses and 100 children then yea it would be a challenge. But if say a man had 3 wives and 13 children I still believe he could have a strong family. In fact, he may have a stronger family than the current traditional one wife one husband format.

Let me add one thing. I am not pro polygamy. I am just curious. This is an intellectual game that is all.

[leeuniverse]

Legalization of Polygamy, Will the church approve the practice?

No.... Unless the Lord specifically directs and authorizes the practice under the Law and Authority of the Lord.

[truth dancer]

Hey Krisjhn...

But I disagree with your statement that polygamy is the destroyer of strong families. I think if you have 43 spouses and 100 children then yea it would be a challenge. But if say a man had 3 wives and 13 children I still believe he could have a strong family. In fact, he may have a stronger family than the current traditional one wife one husband format.

Well... lets see.. two things...

First, I just REALLY strongly feel children need a dad in their lives. It is difficult enough for most dads to spend enough quality time with children from one women let alone trying to spend time with multiple families. I think children really, REALLY suffer.

Secondly, marriages... I'm pretty sure that no one who knows anything about marriage will deny the fact that the healthiest marriages are those who devote and expend energy into the relationship. IOW, the more time together, the more emotional closeness, the more positive interaction the stronger the marriage. Even in the Ensign when there are articles about marriage, they almost always suggest spending quality time with each other as a way to strengthen the partnership. I happen to think it is VERY good advice.

And, think of how you would feel if your wife took another couple of husbands? Would it strengthen your relationship or detract from it? Rather than being with her each night, you got to see her, say once or twice a week? Rather than go out once a week or so, now it would be once a month. Rather than sharing your life and daily experiences with her, she would only have time and attention to briefly say hello cause there would be a few more men waiting to be with her. And this is not even to go to the whole sexual issues that are involved, which can be really hurtful and destructive to a relationship. Just because a man may call his lovers wives rather than mistresses doesn't impact what it does to the relationship...

So, anyway, one thing I have to say.... congratulations for your reflections and honesty that it would be difficult for you to share your wife. It doesn't seem like some men seem to think it through in this way. IOW, they expect a woman to be all find and dandy with a guy (themselves) having multiple sexual partners but don't want to think about the idea that it may not be so great if they had to share their wife with a bunch of men.

It speaks to the idea of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"... ya know?

~dancer~

[Scoates]

I'm going to make a new topic of this. But why do you suppose the church allows multiple sealing for men, but women may be only sealed to one man?

[leeuniverse]

First, I just REALLY strongly feel children need a dad in their lives. It is difficult enough for most dads to spend enough quality time with children from one women let alone trying to spend time with multiple families. I think children really, REALLY suffer.

Funny how people look at things (either a negative or positive approach).... Because for me I see plural marriage actually solving this problem.

There are simply so many "deadbeat" dads and husbands in the world, that whole generations of wives and children suffer because of it, and thereby society suffer's because of it. Plural Marriage is able to help solve this problem by giving a wife and her children a righteous husband and father to care for them.

Now as to time, if family is the key point of plural marriage, then there would be plenty of family and individual time. Remember, it's not just having a father which spends time with a child that is important, it is having a father and a husband that establishes order, discipline, and teaching in the home, so that the children might have all their needs met. A child gains more from the example of a righteous father and just small moments of bonding time than they gain from a mediocre father or no father at all spending lot's of time.

Quality is what's important, not usually quantity.....

[SlackTime]

I tend to agree with Krsjhn that it is possible, even likely, that if the current directions of morality in the US don't change, we could have legalized, and recognized by the state, polygamy within the next 20 years. And I expect that if it does come about that all of the various forms of polygamy, polygyny and polyandry, and even mixtures thereof (multiple wives marrying multiple husbands) would be practiced.

In this I would expect the Church will hold a hard line against all of these forms of marriage as unacceptable. This will seem funny to some non-lds, and we LDS will get yet more abuse from society for our lack of "acceptance" but I imagine that that's the way it will come down.

The only way I see the church re-adopting polygamy in any form would require major civil upheaval and some form of isolation or withdrawal of church membership from society. Of course I could be wrong, my kids say it happens all the time

Ed

[truth dancer]

Hi Lee...

I find this so interesting... I wonder if you really have thought this through...

Funny how people look at things (either a negative or positive approach).... Because for me I see plural marriage actually solving this problem.

There are simply so many "deadbeat" dads and husbands in the world, that whole generations of wives and children suffer because of it, and thereby society suffer's because of it. Plural Marriage is able to help solve this problem by giving a wife and her children a righteous husband and father to care for them.

Now as to time, if family is the key point of plural marriage, then there would be plenty of family and individual time. Remember, it's not just having a father which spends time with a child that is important, it is having a father and a husband that establishes order, discipline, and teaching in the home, so that the children might have all their needs met. A child gains more from the example of a righteous father and just small moments of bonding time than they gain from a mediocre father or no father at all spending lot's of time.

OK... lets take your current situation.

Could you afford, based on your current salary, to support another, lets say, four wives and 20 children? Either you would have to own several houses (most can only afford one) or you would have to have a home big enough for twenty five people to manage well... say six or seven bathrooms, at least 15 bedrooms or so... I just think it is pretty unrealistic to think that most men can truly afford to take care of multiple families with any sort of decent level of existence. So... then we have women working to provide for themselves and their children (basically being single parents).

Lets talk about children... I'm sorry but I TOTALLY disagree with your line of thinking. I think children need their fathers. They don't need a general, ordering them around, telling them what to do, making sure they are obedient. If this is all they needed they can join the Marines. Children need their fathers. They need quality time and lots of it. They need companionship with their dads. They need to feel the love and care and compassion of their dads. They need to be bonded and cared about .. they need time and attention. They just need their dads!!!

There are some not so good dads and there are some not so good moms. The way to solve the problem is to help parents parent.

In spite of the fantasy you seem to have that women are so desperate to have a man that they would want to participate in polygamy rather than be alone, I think you would find that most women would rather be single.

~dancer~

[mnn727]

So the question is, will the church allow polygamy to be practiced once the legal limitation has been removed?

Its not the Church that decides whether polygamy is practiced, its the Lord. When He commands it, it is allowed, otherwise it's not.

[Scoates]

Desire isn't a valid basis to oppose doctrine, Truth.

Not saying you're wrong, but simply that women not having the desire isn't a good way to prove your point.

Um... also, your approach is a bit libellous. For example, your claims that those who support polygamy are only in it for their own desires or fantasies are ad hominem.

[leeuniverse]

Could you afford, based on your current salary, to support another, lets say, four wives and 20 children? Either you would have to own several houses (most can only afford one) or you would have to have a home big enough for twenty five people to manage well... say six or seven bathrooms, at least 15 bedrooms or so... I just think it is pretty unrealistic to think that most men can truly afford to take care of multiple families with any sort of decent level of existence. So... then we have women working to provide for themselves and their children (basically being single parents).

For you to even waste time asking this shows me that you really understand little about plural marriage, especially how the Church practiced it. Plural Marriage was a "calling" in the Church, thus ONLY those who were worthy spiritually, intellectually, and financially were called to do it. Plus, you underestimate the Saints. A family making say $40,000 a year who lives within their means, could live comfortably say here in Vegas and have 10 children, especially if a wife or wives are at home.

Anyway, most people do make a "decent" level of existence, so there are plenty who could have more than one wife and many children.

Lets talk about children... I'm sorry but I TOTALLY disagree with your line of thinking. I think children need their fathers. They don't need a general, ordering them around, telling them what to do, making sure they are obedient. If this is all they needed they can join the Marines. Children need their fathers. They need quality time and lots of it. They need companionship with their dads. They need to feel the love and care and compassion of their dads. They need to be bonded and cared about .. they need time and attention. They just need their dads!!!

You misunderstand, all that you say is important, but you think there will be none or little of it with such a large family. I disagree, and I also don't appreciate your negative characterization of what I said that all that is happening is "ordering people around", etc.. I was actually in the Marines, so I clearly understand the differences between negative re-enforcement and positive and constructive re-enforcement.

Also, for someone saying that kids "need their dads" so much, you seem to want to refuse children who don't have dads, to not have a chance for a good dad.

There are some not so good dads and there are some not so good moms. The way to solve the problem is to help parents parent.

I think if you honestly look at society you would know that it is extremely disproportionate against there being good dads. As someone who spent his whole life up until a few years ago preparing for a career in Law Enforcement, and doing much related thereto, I can tell you unequivocally what the state of society is. Your oversimplification is NOT representative of the reality. There is a significant disproportion of good women with children who have not righteous husbands.

In spite of the fantasy you seem to have that women are so desperate to have a man that they would want to participate in polygamy

[truth dancer]

Hey Scoates...

I'm not sure if you are responding to my post or not...

Desire isn't a valid basis to oppose doctrine, Truth. Not saying you're wrong, but simply that women not having the desire isn't a good way to prove your point.

I'm not talking about doctrine... I'm talking about my observation that few women would care to be in a polygamous relationship. Lee seems to think women want a man so badly that they would gladly participate in this form of alternative marriage.

Um... also, your approach is a bit libellous. For example, your claims that those who support polygamy are only in it for their own desires or fantasies are ad hominem.

I have never claimed that those who support polygamy are only in it for their own desires or fantasies. Maybe you are not responding to me here... I'm not sure. I certainly hope not. I happen to think that most who participated in polygamy did so even though they did not wish to do so, but felt compelled to do so because they thought they had to to gain eternal life.

Most men I know find the idea of polygamy to be very demeaning and degrading to women. But it does seem there are those men who like the idea for obvious reasons.

My observation of Lee is that he has some illusion that women are very desperate to be married and have some overwhelming need to be with a man even if it means sharing a husband. I don't think this is accurate at all. I just don't see women being that desperate or in any way desiring such a relationship.

I also don't find this attitude in many men, even proponents of polygamy.

~dancer~

[truth dancer]

Hi Lee...

Sure, we would all love to be single,

This is an interesting statement.... you seem to wish you were single? I certainly do not and I think most people want a healthy, beautiful, close, loving partnership.

but the fullness of Joy is had another way, and it is Family. And again, plural marriage wasn't for everyone. Please stop comparing the "worlds" perversions of it with the Lords Way's. Apples and Oranges.

Lee.... do you think most polygamous men could provide for all their wives and children? Do you think these men they were able to lovingly parent all their children? I'm not comparing anything at all... I reflecting on the state of families when there is one man, multiple women and numerous children. It doesn't seem to be the ideal, financially, emotionally, parentally, mentally, physically, sexually, or any other way.

The Lords way is the fullness of unconditional LOVE, for all of his children, not just the ones that are lucky to have good fathers and husbands.....

What?

I'm sorry but I just don't have such a negative view of men as do you.

But only a few good men get to be married and have children? This makes no sense Lee...

~dancer~

[Krisjhn]

I tend to agree with Ed. I think the church and the Lord will not bring polygamy back into practice once it becomes legalized. Part of the growth of the church comes from their being a certain tension with the world it inhabits. By not embracing polygamy the church will continue to set itself aprt from the world.

Dancer,

You make some very valid points. However, for the sake of brevity I believe you are projecting your own fears and dislikes of polygamous relationships rather than looking at it from an objective point of view.

Sure I would not like my wife taking another husband. I would agree that it would hinder our relationship rather than help it but the Lord has never said that multi husband marriages are ok. He has said that multiple wives are ok. Why? I don't know. Maybe women are better at handling that type of relationship. Don't castigate me for that comment it is purely speculation.

At various times polygamy has been sanctioned by the Lord. As it is important to the Lord that families are strong and men are good fathers it logically follows that the Lord would not sanction polygamy if one could not be a good husband and father in such a relationship. I have known a few polygamists. They would argue that their relationship with their father is as every bit as strong as my relationship with my father even though I come from a "traditional" family setting.

Plus there is a flaw in your argument. You state that in such relationships it is difficult for the father to spend time with the children. So does that mean I should limit my family to one child? If I have 13 or 14 kids is that going to make me a worse father due to the fact that my time with each child will be lessened? Not at all.

KJO

[Scoates]

In spite of the fantasy you seem to have ...

This is what I was referring to. The same argument came up last time I ran into you talking about polygamy. It's somewhat attacking the character of the poster, rather than addressing the issue. That's all.

Am I not supposed to call you just "Truth." I was too tired to write your whole name. I considered just calling you Dancer, but that was one letter longer and the letters were spaced pretty far apart on my keyboard (compared to "truth"), so it would have been a lot harder to type.

[Scoates]

Don't castigate me for that comment it is purely speculation.

I say we castigate him!

[truth dancer]

Hi Scoates...

This is what I was referring to. The same argument came up last time I ran into you talking about polygamy. It's somewhat attacking the character of the poster, rather than addressing the issue. That's all.

To be REALLY clear... the "fantasy" to which I am referring in my above post is the idea that women are desperate. I am not ridiculing Lee.... I'm suggesting this idea he seems to have that women want to be married so badly that they would gladly participate in a polygamous relationship is not reality... it is a fantasy or an illusion or a misunderstanding or a make believe idea...

Hope that helps clarify.

~dancer~

[Scoates]

Hi Scoates... 

This is what I was referring to. The same argument came up last time I ran into you talking about polygamy. It's somewhat attacking the character of the poster, rather than addressing the issue. That's all.

To be REALLY clear... the "fantasy" to which I am referring in my above post is the idea that women are desperate. I am not ridiculing Lee.... I'm suggesting this idea he seems to have that women want to be married so badly that they would gladly participate in a polygamous relationship is not reality... it is a fantasy or an illusion or a misunderstanding or a make believe idea...

Hope that helps clarify.

~dancer~

Yeah, it does. But do you see how it can be taken another way?

I'm glad I didn't have to castigate you. I hear that sort of thing has been going on lately. 'Lot of castigaters around.

[Krisjhn]

Please no. I do not desire the castigation. I would but live my life without having to go through the castigatory process.

[truth dancer]

Hi Krisjhn...

You make some very valid points. However, for the sake of brevity I believe you are projecting your own fears and dislikes of polygamous relationships rather than looking at it from an objective point of view.

Actually, I don't believe polygamy has/had anything whatsoever to do with God so I'm not too worried about it!

Funny though, cause I often think people jump on the polygamy bandwagon without really understanding the implications.

Sure I would not like my wife taking another husband. I would agree that it would hinder our relationship rather than help it but the Lord has never said that multi husband marriages are ok. He has said that multiple wives are ok. Why? I don't know. Maybe women are better at handling that type of relationship. Don't castigate me for that comment it is purely speculation.

Doing a little deep breathing here...

Again, I don't think polygamy has anything whatsoever to do with God.

Plus there is a flaw in your argument. You state that in such relationships it is difficult for the father to spend time with the children. So does that mean I should limit my family to one child? If I have 13 or 14 kids is that going to make me a worse father due to the fact that my time with each child will be lessened? Not at all.

I think parents should only have the number of children they can provide for, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, financially, etc. etc. I think most parents will acknowledge that marriage and parenting are not easy... I think most fathers would agree that just taking care of one family requires their best energy. My observation is that most people in successful marriages would suggest that their marriage took time and energy and effort to be healthy and happy. Most parents in my experience believe that good parenting requires time and energy.

If people want to justify polygamy because God said, fine (Not that I agree but I get it). But to justify it by suggesting it is the ideal just really doesn't work in my mind.

Just how I see it...

~dancer~

[Krisjhn]

If people want to justify polygamy because God said, fine (Not that I agree but I get it). But to justify it by suggesting it is the ideal just really doesn't work in my mind.

Now I never suggested I thought it was ideal. Nor am I trying to justify it. Nor was the intent of this thread to discuss the ins and outs of polygamous marriages. Rather is was a purley speculative question as to whether people though that the Lord would once again revive polygamy if it became legalized in this country. I was looking more for a discussion and debate on politics and policy rather than on merit of polygamous relationships.

I would love to hear some people argue why they think He would or why they think He wouldn't.