D&C 7 - The power and keys of ministry

[jonah747]

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

And I’m saying that it is dangerous to take verses out of context and assume that if Jesus says something to one person, then it applies to all.  The context generally gives us clues about how the teachings or directives apply.

Matthew 16:19 says “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and 
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt 
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

In this scenario, the keys are meant for both binding and loosing. I don’t regard it 
as a single individual holding all the keys and then subsequently delegating sub-level 
tasks of binding and loosing to others. I also don’t regard the context as representing 
many keys – one key for this, another key for that, and so on and so on.

Christ spoke in Matthew 18:10-20 (specifically “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye 
shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth 
shall be loosed in heaven”).  

Does this apply solely to Peter, or does it extend to all the disciples He is addressing?

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Do you drink poison and handle snakes?  If not, why don’t you apply Mark 16:17-18 the same way to those items?

Mark 16:18 is not about Jesus suggesting the disciples to knowingly drink poison and 
provoke snakes to bite them.  These are for the cases when the disciples unknowingly 
consume a poisoned drink or a snake bites them (like what occurred to Paul).  We are 
not to tempt the Lord by doing such things on purpose, like "See what I can do".

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

The Bible doesn’t say how the person in Luke 9:49-50 received his authority.  So, we can treat this example in one of two ways:  Do we do what you are doing, and assert that the person received the authority directly from God by believing he had the authority without any biblical support whatsoever?  Or do we look at the rest of the Bible and see that this same “power” was given by ordination to others, like the way it was given to apostles and elders all through the New Testament?  I say the biblical approach is much more reasonable.  But I understand why you might prefer the non-biblical approach, because otherwise how will you support any claims to authority?

You never did further detail his authority or his ordination.  Who gave him authority?  
Who ordained him? How?  By the laying on of hands? 

Would you like to explain instead of focusing on the disciples who had rebuked him?

For now, I would rely on the words of Christ – “And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him 
not: for he that is not against us is for us”. 

This is a commendation for that unknown person, not a rebuke.  Jesus did not instruct 
his disciples to seek out that man and confer authority upon him through ordination 
at their hands.

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

But this goes against your whole argument, because Paul goes on to explain that not everyone has each of these gifts given to them.   He compares the church to a body that has many members.  The body has ears, eyes, a nose, etc., and every member is different.  He even points out that not all are apostles or prophets or teachers or workers of miracles or have the gift of healing, as you assume by taking Mark 16 out of context.

And the fact that these gifts come from the Holy Spirit doesn’t negate that some of them are bestowed through blessings of ordination, like what Paul wrote to Timothy:  “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”  (1 Timothy 4:14)

I agree with you.  Not all women have the gifts to heal, perform miracles, prophesy, 
discern spirits, speak in different tongues, and interpret tongues.

I’ll agree and correct my earlier statement. Some gifts (not all) are bestowed through 
ordination.

We do not know which gift Timothy received by the laying on of hands.

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Yes, they were not authentic followers because they tried to assume they had authority simply by believing.  They believed they could cast out demons in the name of Jesus, but they couldn’t.  Isn’t that the same approach you are taking?

I believe I have authority to cast out demons in the name of Jesus, yet I feel I lack 
the necessary faith and prayer to utilize this authority.

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

As for 1 Corinthians 1, it says Paul was “called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God”.  We can again look to Acts 13:1-3 and see that both Paul and Barnabas were called by the Holy Ghost and “set apart… for the work whereunto I have called them”, and they were ordained by the laying on of hands. This was definitely “through the will of God”.

What role do you believe Peter, James, or John had in authorizing and determining the 
scope of the ministry of Paul and Barnabas when they were being set apart?

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Jesus called Paul.  But do you have a verse that says Jesus ordained Paul?  No. 

Did Paul “seek” the calling?  On the contrary, he was preaching against Jesus until he was set straight.

Who set Paul straight before he preached the gospel in Damascus before he met with Peter?

On 4/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

It doesn’t matter what I think about Paul meeting with Peter.  What matters is why did Paul feel the need to include his going to meet with Peter in his defense, to the Galatians, for his authority as an apostle of Jesus Christ?  It seems like such an incidental thing to include unless it meant something to Paul in his defense of his authority, for that is what Paul was trying to establish.

I don’t know.  Maybe his authority from God was more believable if he mentioned the 
name of someone already known to others as being one with authority. 

In addition to the twelve apostles and Paul, there are a few other individuals who 
are specifically identified as apostles in the New Testament: (Barnabas, Acts 14:14; 
James the brother of Jesus, Galatians 1:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:7).  We have no record 
indicating they felt it necessary to convene with Peter for the purpose of confirming 
their authority.

Apart from those already specified, the New Testament does not explicitly designate 
any additional individuals as apostles. Nevertheless, numerous early adherents of Jesus 
undoubtedly held pivotal positions in propagating the Gospel and laying the foundation 
of the nascent Christian community. While these figures might have been termed disciples, 
missionaries, or leaders within the Christian fold, the title "apostle" typically 
pertains to those directly selected and commissioned by Jesus during his ministry or 
acknowledged as such by the early Church.

The keys to bind and to loose are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon or 
the more recent Doctrine and Covenants.

The board’s moderators are giving me subtle hints I am not welcome here. After a few 
soft bans over the last year (in which the site was accessible but a “You have been 
banned” message was displayed, I was able to eventually log in after a few weeks), this 
time they resorted to blocking my ip address, which prevented even an attempt to load 
the site.  So this may be the last time I am able to communicate with you unless I just 
use another ip address.  Reddit is more open to my communications.

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

Matthew 16:19 says “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and 
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt 
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

In this scenario, the keys are meant for both binding and loosing. I don’t regard it 
as a single individual holding all the keys and then subsequently delegating sub-level 
tasks of binding and loosing to others. I also don’t regard the context as representing 
many keys – one key for this, another key for that, and so on and so on.

Christ spoke in Matthew 18:10-20 (specifically “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye 
shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth 
shall be loosed in heaven”).  

Does this apply solely to Peter, or does it extend to all the disciples He is addressing?

Mark 16:18 is not about Jesus suggesting the disciples to knowingly drink poison and 
provoke snakes to bite them.  These are for the cases when the disciples unknowingly 
consume a poisoned drink or a snake bites them (like what occurred to Paul).  We are 
not to tempt the Lord by doing such things on purpose, like "See what I can do".

You never did further detail his authority or his ordination.  Who gave him authority?  
Who ordained him? How?  By the laying on of hands? 

Would you like to explain instead of focusing on the disciples who had rebuked him?

For now, I would rely on the words of Christ – “And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him 
not: for he that is not against us is for us”. 

This is a commendation for that unknown person, not a rebuke.  Jesus did not instruct 
his disciples to seek out that man and confer authority upon him through ordination 
at their hands.

I agree with you.  Not all women have the gifts to heal, perform miracles, prophesy, 
discern spirits, speak in different tongues, and interpret tongues.

I’ll agree and correct my earlier statement. Some gifts (not all) are bestowed through 
ordination.

We do not know which gift Timothy received by the laying on of hands.

I believe I have authority to cast out demons in the name of Jesus, yet I feel I lack 
the necessary faith and prayer to utilize this authority.

What role do you believe Peter, James, or John had in authorizing and determining the 
scope of the ministry of Paul and Barnabas when they were being set apart?

Who set Paul straight before he preached the gospel in Damascus before he met with Peter?

I don’t know.  Maybe his authority from God was more believable if he mentioned the 
name of someone already known to others as being one with authority. 

In addition to the twelve apostles and Paul, there are a few other individuals who 
are specifically identified as apostles in the New Testament: (Barnabas, Acts 14:14; 
James the brother of Jesus, Galatians 1:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:7).  We have no record 
indicating they felt it necessary to convene with Peter for the purpose of confirming 
their authority.

Apart from those already specified, the New Testament does not explicitly designate 
any additional individuals as apostles. Nevertheless, numerous early adherents of Jesus 
undoubtedly held pivotal positions in propagating the Gospel and laying the foundation 
of the nascent Christian community. While these figures might have been termed disciples, 
missionaries, or leaders within the Christian fold, the title "apostle" typically 
pertains to those directly selected and commissioned by Jesus during his ministry or 
acknowledged as such by the early Church.

The keys to bind and to loose are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon or 
the more recent Doctrine and Covenants.

The board’s moderators are giving me subtle hints I am not welcome here. After a few 
soft bans over the last year (in which the site was accessible but a “You have been 
banned” message was displayed, I was able to eventually log in after a few weeks), this 
time they resorted to blocking my ip address, which prevented even an attempt to load 
the site.  So this may be the last time I am able to communicate with you unless I just 
use another ip address.  Reddit is more open to my communications.

The keys to bind and to loose are specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. See D&C 128:14 (and the rest of the section), which power or keys to bind and loose are described in detail in Helaman 10. Also see DC 132:45-46.

ETA regarding more than one key: Multiple keys (two) are mentioned in Revelation 1:18. The key of the house of David is a specific key (Revelation 3:7), as is the key of knowledge (revelation) in Luke 11:2. Given that "key" is the authority to act (have power) on specific matters, the unique highlights of each Old Testament prophet's dispensation and calling entails distinct keys.

Edited April 21, 2024 by CV75

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, jonah747 said:

Matthew 16:19 says “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and 
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt 
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

In this scenario, the keys are meant for both binding and loosing. I don’t regard it 
as a single individual holding all the keys and then subsequently delegating sub-level 
tasks of binding and loosing to others. I also don’t regard the context as representing 
many keys – one key for this, another key for that, and so on and so on.

Christ spoke in Matthew 18:10-20 (specifically “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye 
shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth 
shall be loosed in heaven”).  

Does this apply solely to Peter, or does it extend to all the disciples He is addressing?

I already addressed this question (indirectly) in my post on March 19, although not a clear as I could have said it.  Jesus Christ holds all the keys of the priesthood pertaining to His Church.  And Jesus conferred upon each of his apostles all the keys that pertain to the kingdom of God on earth.  Peter (who was the presiding leader of the church at that time) was the only person on earth authorized to exercise all those priesthood keys until the time of his death.  And this would be how it applied to the verses in Matthew 18.

5 hours ago, jonah747 said:

Mark 16:18 is not about Jesus suggesting the disciples to knowingly drink poison and 
provoke snakes to bite them.  These are for the cases when the disciples unknowingly 
consume a poisoned drink or a snake bites them (like what occurred to Paul).  We are 
not to tempt the Lord by doing such things on purpose, like "See what I can do".

This was my point, but it also shows that this was not intended "for all believers".  The same goes for the gifts of the Spirit.  You can't just take those verses to mean that anyone can do all of what is said there to the eleven apostles, the signs have a specific context.

Regarding my comments on Luke 9:49-50, you said:

5 hours ago, jonah747 said:

You never did further detail his authority or his ordination.  Who gave him authority?  
Who ordained him? How?  By the laying on of hands? 

Would you like to explain instead of focusing on the disciples who had rebuked him?

For now, I would rely on the words of Christ – “And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him 
not: for he that is not against us is for us”. 

This is a commendation for that unknown person, not a rebuke.  Jesus did not instruct 
his disciples to seek out that man and confer authority upon him through ordination 
at their hands.

I'll repeat what I said last time (since you are asking the same question again): "The Bible doesn’t say how the person in Luke 9:49-50 received his authority."

Where did I focus on the disciples who had rebuked him?  (I didn't).  And did I say he didn't have the authority to do what he did?  No.  So why are you making up an argument to attack that I did not make?  (That's known as the "straw man" logical fallacy, by the way).

So I'm going to repeat what I said last time.  Since the Bible doesn't say how the man received his authority, we can treat this example in one of two ways:  Do we do what you are doing, and assert that the person received the authority directly from God by believing he had the authority without any biblical support whatsoever?  Or do we look at the rest of the Bible and see that this same “power” was given by ordination to others, like the way it was given to apostles and elders all through the New Testament?  I say the biblical approach is much more reasonable. 

5 hours ago, jonah747 said:

I believe I have authority to cast out demons in the name of Jesus, yet I feel I lack 
the necessary faith and prayer to utilize this authority.

I realize you believe this.  I just don't find any biblical support for that approach (and I've looked).  

5 hours ago, jonah747 said:

What role do you believe Peter, James, or John had in authorizing and determining the 
scope of the ministry of Paul and Barnabas when they were being set apart?

The Bible doesn't provide the complete details, but clearly Paul and Barnabas viewed the apostles at Jerusalem to be the authority on those matters given what we find in Acts 15 (especially verses 2-4 and 22-29).

6 hours ago, jonah747 said:

Who set Paul straight before he preached the gospel in Damascus before he met with Peter?

Obviously Jesus did when Paul had his vision on the road to Damascus.   Jesus rebuked Paul for persecuting him and his people, and afterward Paul testified to others of his vision and conversion and to the reality that Jesus is the Christ and his resurrection (as any of us would certainly do under the same circumstances).

6 hours ago, jonah747 said:

In addition to the twelve apostles and Paul, there are a few other individuals who 
are specifically identified as apostles in the New Testament: (Barnabas, Acts 14:14; 
James the brother of Jesus, Galatians 1:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:7).  We have no record 
indicating they felt it necessary to convene with Peter for the purpose of confirming 
their authority.

Apart from those already specified, the New Testament does not explicitly designate 
any additional individuals as apostles. Nevertheless, numerous early adherents of Jesus 
undoubtedly held pivotal positions in propagating the Gospel and laying the foundation 
of the nascent Christian community. While these figures might have been termed disciples, 
missionaries, or leaders within the Christian fold, the title "apostle" typically 
pertains to those directly selected and commissioned by Jesus during his ministry or 
acknowledged as such by the early Church.

The additional apostles do emphasize the fact that the office of apostle was intended to continue on in the church until "we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God".  And you acknowledge here that the apostles had to be "acknowledged as such by the early Church", which is exactly what I have been saying.  

6 hours ago, jonah747 said:

The keys to bind and to loose are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon or 
the more recent Doctrine and Covenants.

CV75 addressed this already above.  

6 hours ago, jonah747 said:

The board’s moderators are giving me subtle hints I am not welcome here. After a few 
soft bans over the last year (in which the site was accessible but a “You have been 
banned” message was displayed, I was able to eventually log in after a few weeks), this 
time they resorted to blocking my ip address, which prevented even an attempt to load 
the site.  So this may be the last time I am able to communicate with you unless I just 
use another ip address.  Reddit is more open to my communications.

I'm sorry to hear that.  I'm sure the moderators have their reasons, there are board rules (and I've been trying to warn you about that by having multiple login names).

I'm going to be busy this week anyway, I have a business trip all week and a talk to give in Sacrament meeting next Sunday.  So I'll be out as well.