Zosimus Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 Hi. I've been posting under another handle (Rajah Manchou) for several years now on a range of topics, occasional mixing in some of my research on the Malay Book of Mormon geography model. I'm presently on a tour of these sites on the Malay Peninsula and wanted to share pictures and research with the board with a new account more related to this specific topic. My hypothesis is that the Narrative of Zosimus and the Book of Mormon speak of the same location/geography and both reference a historical people known as the Ramans in a place known as the "Island of the Blessed", located in the Malay Archipelago. The Narrative of Zosimus (History of the Rechabites) and the Book of Mormon
Calm Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Zosimus said: Hi. I've been posting under another handle (Rajah Manchou) for several years now on a range of topics, occasional mixing in some of my research on the Malay Book of Mormon geography model. I'm presently on a tour of these sites on the Malay Peninsula and wanted to share pictures and research with the board with a new account more related to this specific topic. My hypothesis is that the Narrative of Zosimus and the Book of Mormon speak of the same location/geography and both reference a historical people known as the Ramans in a place known as the "Island of the Blessed", located in the Malay Archipelago. The Narrative of Zosimus (History of the Rechabites) and the Book of Mormon Your link just goes back to your post.
Zosimus Posted March 21, 2022 Author Posted March 21, 2022 27 minutes ago, Calm said: Your link just goes back to your post. Oops, here it is The Narrative of Zosimus (History of the Rechabites) and the Book of Mormon Its just the John Welch article on the similarities between the Book of Mormon and the Narrative of Zosimus
Zosimus Posted March 21, 2022 Author Posted March 21, 2022 not sure what is going on https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/narrative-zosimus-history-rechabites-and-book-mormon
Calm Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) Weird. It worked though when I cut and pasted it. Let me see if will work for me. https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/narrative-zosimus-history-rechabites-and-book-mormon Added: Really weird. I retried your last two links and they worked, but then got the just back to this thread with your first link and then the others of yours didn’t work again. But mine still did. Will be interested to see if my link works for others. Edited March 21, 2022 by Calm
Robert F. Smith Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 13 hours ago, Calm said: Weird. It worked though when I cut and pasted it. Let me see if will work for me. https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/narrative-zosimus-history-rechabites-and-book-mormon ........................ Yeh. This one works for me.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 20 hours ago, Zosimus said: Hi. I've been posting under another handle (Rajah Manchou) for several years now on a range of topics, occasional mixing in some of my research on the Malay Book of Mormon geography model. I'm presently on a tour of these sites on the Malay Peninsula and wanted to share pictures and research with the board with a new account more related to this specific topic. My hypothesis is that the Narrative of Zosimus and the Book of Mormon speak of the same location/geography and both reference a historical people known as the Ramans in a place known as the "Island of the Blessed", located in the Malay Archipelago. The Narrative of Zosimus (History of the Rechabites) and the Book of Mormon I sent a PM to you earlier today. Does your new handle cancel the old one?
Zosimus Posted March 23, 2022 Author Posted March 23, 2022 On 3/22/2022 at 7:32 AM, Robert F. Smith said: I sent a PM to you earlier today. Does your new handle cancel the old one? I did get the PM, thanks for reminding me of that. I'd been in touch with Toponce a few months back to share some research. btw, I'll be using this handle from now on
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Zosimus said: I did get the PM, thanks for reminding me of that. I'd been in touch with Toponce a few months back to share some research. btw, I'll be using this handle from now on OK. I've added it to our ongoing conversation.
Zosimus Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 On 3/24/2022 at 7:18 PM, Douglas Avans said: With reference to Keri Toponce's work on this subject and a possible course correction it could take the following might be relevant: (PDF) Early Migrants in North India | Liny Srinivasan - Academia.edu Razib Khan just posted this: The southwestern groups in the Indian subcontinent are enriched for “Middle Eastern” ancestry It's pretty clear that South and Southeast Asia received migrations from the Middle East in the Book of Mormon timeframe. It's surprising how similar they are to the people described in the Book of Mormon. For example, they claim to have left Jerusalem around 600 BC via the same route Lehi took, and they wrote their histories on metal plates in scripts derived from Aramaic. According to the histories of the Cochin Jews, their plates date to 379 AD. In other words, the Hebrews of India were writing on metal plates at the same time Moroni was writing on metal plates. There's so much we can learn about the Book of Mormon through the historical migrations of Hebrews throughout the Indian Ocean and beyond.
Zosimus Posted March 29, 2022 Author Posted March 29, 2022 On 3/24/2022 at 7:18 PM, Douglas Avans said: With reference to Keri Toponce's work on this subject and a possible course correction it could take the following might be relevant: (PDF) Early Migrants in North India | Liny Srinivasan - Academia.edu It's certain that within the Book of Mormon timeframe there was a king named Mara or Maran. (source) A well known Tamil scholar had this to say about Maran: Maran is he who barters; it is a title assumed by the Pandya kings on account of their earliest commercial relationship with the Egyptians, Chaldeans, ancient Arabs and other Western nations ... And we may say that this word Maran has greater connection with the Hebrew Mara to sell or barter, than with the Burmese Mranmar (Myanmar). Some scholars have suggested a relationship between Maran, and a warrior chief known as Maroni. This warrior chief was the founder of an ancient city called Serokam. @Robert F. Smith I'm curious if Serokam has any relationship to *zerʿa-ḥemlâ
Robert F. Smith Posted March 29, 2022 Posted March 29, 2022 9 hours ago, Zosimus said: It's certain that within the Book of Mormon timeframe there was a king named Mara or Maran. (source) A well known Tamil scholar had this to say about Maran: Maran is he who barters; it is a title assumed by the Pandya kings on account of their earliest commercial relationship with the Egyptians, Chaldeans, ancient Arabs and other Western nations ... And we may say that this word Maran has greater connection with the Hebrew Mara to sell or barter, than with the Burmese Mranmar (Myanmar). Some scholars have suggested a relationship between Maran, and a warrior chief known as Maroni. This warrior chief was the founder of an ancient city called Serokam. See Chaim Rabin, “The Song of Songs and Tamil Poetry,” Studies in Religion, 3 (1973):205-219; Hananya Goodman, ed., Between Jerusalem and Benares: Comparative Studies in Judaism and Hinduism (SUNY Press, 1994). 9 hours ago, Zosimus said: @Robert F. Smith I'm curious if Serokam has any relationship to *zerʿa-ḥemlâ Not that I know of.
Zosimus Posted March 30, 2022 Author Posted March 30, 2022 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not that I know of. Heh had meant that more as a comment but mistakenly added a question mark, and I don’t yet have powers to edit my posts thanks for the Chaim Rabin article
Robert F. Smith Posted March 30, 2022 Posted March 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Zosimus said: ............... thanks for the Chaim Rabin article Rabin was my first biblical Hebrew teacher -- at Hebrew University, Jerusalem. A great man. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 1, 2022 Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) @Zosimus Thought you might be interested in this from Jeff Lindsay (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7139169&postID=1810209105552342641 ), even though is it not new to you: Quote The 19 gold plates of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra from Korea are now "nothing beyond novelty purposes" because no longer extant? The extensive tradition of legal records on copper plates in India (see Indian copper plate inscriptions," Wikipedia) were just "nothing beyond novelty purposes"? The copper plate tradition in ancient India is quite interesting, and is related to a tradition that the Jews in a colony at Cochin, India kept extensive records on copper plates. They are not extant, but may have been in the 1700s when Captain Alexander Hamilton visited Cochin. See Captain Alexander Hamilton, A New Account of the East Indies, vol. 1 (London: 1744), 323–24, available at Archive.org and Google Books. He reports: Quote They [the Jews in Cochin, India] have a Synagogue at Cochin, not far from the King’s Palace, about two Miles from the City, in which are carefully kept their Records, engraven in Copper-plates in Hebrew characters; and when any of the Characters decay, they are new cut, so that they can shew their own History, from the Reign of Nebuchadnezzar to the present Time.... They declare themselves to be of the Tribe of Manasseh... I have previously discussed Hamilton's statement on this blog. Such plates, now no longer extant (looted? in hiding? destroyed?), suggest that at least one Jewish colony was motivated to record their history on metal plates. This goes beyond "nothing beyond novelty purposes." Hamilton's statement is consistent with Neal Reynolds's recent work suggesting that a Manassite scribal tradition may have been behind the rare and exotic brass plates (likely an alloy that we would call bronze today). Writing on metal plates was an extraordinarily rare thing, obviously. It involved great cost and high levels of skill. Such records on metal, especially sacred or vital legal records, were not meant to be left about randomly like pottery shards for archaeologists to find. They were precious and obviously kept hidden rather than on display. The longer the record, the more rare and precious it was, and the more likely to be stolen and, if made of valuable metal, melted down and reused. Edited April 1, 2022 by Robert F. Smith
Zosimus Posted April 2, 2022 Author Posted April 2, 2022 On 3/30/2022 at 5:30 PM, Douglas Avans said: So tell us more about this Serokam place and its location. Also, any variant spellings? According to the Kedah Annals, Marong/Maroni built a fort with a ditch in a place called Srai, which he renamed Zameen Soram (the land of Soram) [1] a toponym with Persian and Arabic roots. Srai was on the coast but the water had receded leaving it too far from the sea, so a descendant of Marong/Maroni moved downriver to Serokam. I haven't come across any variations. ---- [1] this is also translated as Zamin Turan, a flipped version of Turan Zamin, a region in NE Iran
Zosimus Posted April 2, 2022 Author Posted April 2, 2022 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: @Zosimus Thought you might be interested in this from Jeff Lindsay (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7139169&postID=1810209105552342641 ), even though is it not new to you: Thanks for that link. While reading I noticed Jeff had posted a follow up blog to my comments on the Mormon Interpreter article: The Jewish Copper Plates of Cochin, India and a Hint of an Ancient Jewish Tradition of Writing on Metal Plates
Robert F. Smith Posted April 2, 2022 Posted April 2, 2022 11 hours ago, Zosimus said: Thanks for that link. While reading I noticed Jeff had posted a follow up blog to my comments on the Mormon Interpreter article: The Jewish Copper Plates of Cochin, India and a Hint of an Ancient Jewish Tradition of Writing on Metal Plates Yep. He is cribbing from you, and with good reason.
Zosimus Posted April 3, 2022 Author Posted April 3, 2022 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yep. He is cribbing from you, and with good reason. All fine by me. Ever since I first visited the crumbling synagogues and churches of Cochin I've felt there was a story needing to be told. Jeff has posted a new article today on Gad the Seer: The Words of Gad the Seer: Thoughts on a "Lost Book" Preserved by the Jews at Cochin, India It's a topic we'd discussed here a few times given the Dutch East India Company connections, but I couldn't find all the references. Only this one.
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