champatsch Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 On the title page of the Book of Mormon it says that the people of Jared were scattered at the tower. Of course they weren't dispersed at that time, but remained together for many years before divisions entered in. So this may be a case of an archaic meaning: 'separate from the main body'. Here are quotations I've gathered on scattered (OED definition 2d) over the past while, some involving people and all using from: 1577 [ page 93 ] EEBO A03448 Raphael Holinshed [d. 1580?] Chronicles (An important Tudor history used by Shakespeare) the Earle was scattered from his company, 1599 [ page 2 ] EEBO A00021 Francis Bacon [1561–1626] A letter written out of England to an English gentleman remaining at Padua in which voyage, it was his hap, that the Frances (a small barke wherein he went) was scattered from the Fleet about Guadalupe, and taken by fiue Spanish frigots. 1629 [ page 153 ] EEBO A19625 Lancelot Andrewes [1555 –1626] Sermons (Lancelot Andrewes was in charge of the Westminster Translators for the KJV.) when one was scattered from GOD, how to gather him to GOD againe, 1721 GOOG John Strype, Historical Memorials, Ecclesiastical and Civil, 3:419 The Scots now sent out seven Ships upon some Exploit, which came to Holy Island: Three whereof were reported to be scattered from the rest; 1731 GOOG Robert Millar, The History of the Propagation of Christianity, and the Overthrow of Paganism, 1:181 Varro, cited by Macrobius, informs us, “That the Pelasgians being scattered from their own country, and not knowing where to go, were by the oracle ordered to repair to Italy, . . .” 1745 GOOG Thomas Astley, A New General Collection of Voyages and Travels, 3:231 But meeting with contrary Winds, only two of them (which were scattered from the rest) arrived at Tercera; ******************************** Here's one without from: 1595 EEBO Lewis Lewkenor [d. 1626] A discourse of the usage of the English fugitives, by the Spaniard insomuch, that hee laded three shippes, of which one was scattered by tempest, and cast awaie vpon the coast of Scotlande, the other two came safely home to Callice, A couple requests/challenges: Can someone find an example of archaic scatter involving persons later than the 1731 quotation? Can someone find an example of archaic scatter involving vessels later than the 1745 quotation? Thanks.
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, champatsch said: On the title page of the Book of Mormon it says that the people of Jared were scattered at the tower. Of course they weren't dispersed at that time, but remained together for many years before divisions entered in. So this may be a case of an archaic meaning: 'separate from the main body'. Here are quotations I've gathered on scattered (OED definition 2d) over the past while, some involving people and all using from: 1577 [ page 93 ] EEBO A03448 Raphael Holinshed [d. 1580?] Chronicles (An important Tudor history used by Shakespeare) the Earle was scattered from his company, 1599 [ page 2 ] EEBO A00021 Francis Bacon [1561–1626] A letter written out of England to an English gentleman remaining at Padua in which voyage, it was his hap, that the Frances (a small barke wherein he went) was scattered from the Fleet about Guadalupe, and taken by fiue Spanish frigots. 1629 [ page 153 ] EEBO A19625 Lancelot Andrewes [1555 –1626] Sermons (Lancelot Andrewes was in charge of the Westminster Translators for the KJV.) when one was scattered from GOD, how to gather him to GOD againe, 1721 GOOG John Strype, Historical Memorials, Ecclesiastical and Civil, 3:419 The Scots now sent out seven Ships upon some Exploit, which came to Holy Island: Three whereof were reported to be scattered from the rest; 1731 GOOG Robert Millar, The History of the Propagation of Christianity, and the Overthrow of Paganism, 1:181 Varro, cited by Macrobius, informs us, “That the Pelasgians being scattered from their own country, and not knowing where to go, were by the oracle ordered to repair to Italy, . . .” 1745 GOOG Thomas Astley, A New General Collection of Voyages and Travels, 3:231 But meeting with contrary Winds, only two of them (which were scattered from the rest) arrived at Tercera; ******************************** Here's one without from: 1595 EEBO Lewis Lewkenor [d. 1626] A discourse of the usage of the English fugitives, by the Spaniard insomuch, that hee laded three shippes, of which one was scattered by tempest, and cast awaie vpon the coast of Scotlande, the other two came safely home to Callice, A couple requests/challenges: Can someone find an example of archaic scatter involving persons later than the 1731 quotation? Can someone find an example of archaic scatter involving vessels later than the 1745 quotation? Thanks. The way I read the text the scattering being referred to is that the people of Jared were scattered from their original homeland and their society. Edited October 16, 2017 by ksfisher
Robert F. Smith Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, ksfisher said: The way I read the text the scattering being referred to is that the people of Jared were scattered from their original homeland and their society. I can't say what Early Modern English should be in such instances, but I can tell you what Hirsch Miller did with his 1922 Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, as well as what the biblical text reads in Hebrew & Greek: On the title page, Miller renders "scattered" with passive nipzaru, while he has yepazer and nipzar in Ether 1:33. I had expected that he would use the Hebrew verb puz from Genesis 11:4,8-9, pen-napuz "lest we be scattered" (Greek diasparenai); wayyapez "dispersed from there" (diespeiren); hepizam "dispersed them from there" (diespeiren). Since the Greek LXX verb is our source for diaspora, it is clear that a group could retain its identity and language, even though other groups would not be able to communicate with them. In any case, this is an etiological tale designed to explain the multiplicity of languages, and it goes back to a Sumerian original. Edited October 17, 2017 by Robert F. Smith
champatsch Posted October 17, 2017 Author Posted October 17, 2017 The OED has two examples, last one dated 1661. But the usage is attested in the 18c, and so the OED entry below needs updating. It would be good to determine whether the usage that the OED calls obsolete continued into the 19c. Johnson's 1755-1756 dictionary doesn't have the following definition. Neither does Webster's 1828. †2d. trans. To separate, drive apart (one or more individuals from the main body). Obs. 1588 Earl of Leicester in Defeat Sp. Armada (Navy Rec. Soc.) II. 35 Two of the greatest carracks that the King of Spain had in his fleet, being scattered from the rest. a 1661 Fuller Worthies, Derbysh. (1662) i. 234 Their ships with the violence of the wind were much shattered, and the Bonaventure, scattered from the other two ships. Most of the time Webster's has a definition that is likely for Book of Mormon meaning. But there are quite a few cases where a likely definition is lacking. This may be one of those.
clarkgoble Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 Quick question, but isn't the Book of Mormon here most likely just paraphrasing Genesis 11:4,8 where it uses the term scattered? We can of course ask how the translator/author understood that term. But the range of usage in English from the 15th through 19th century seems secondary to just this textual source. The bigger issue would be the meaning of the Hebrew for Genesis 11 I'd think. While I don't know Hebrew and will bow to the knowledge of the Hebrew speakers my understanding is that it means to dash into pieces. Since the translation makes such extensive use of the KJV and paraphrases of the KJV passages (including ones clearly not being quoted in a source sense) it seems like the translator thought that was the best match. Understandable given that it is describing similar events of the same people. There are important differences between the texts of course. 2
champatsch Posted October 18, 2017 Author Posted October 18, 2017 An abridgment taken from the book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, which were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people when they were building a tower to get to heaven. No, Jared's group wasn't 'scattered', they were 'separated out'. Much later they divided into more than one group, in another land.
Recommended Posts