God probably won't allow us to find Nahom

[clarkgoble]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Would you be so kind as to provide source(s) for this? Thanks in advance.

I've not heard of Arabian steel in that era but there's abundant evidence of steel in the Turkey region starting around 1800 BC. Wikipedia lists this as the reference: Akanuma, H. (2005). "The significance of the composition of excavated iron fragments taken from Stratum III at the site of Kaman-Kalehöyük, Turkey". Anatolian Archaeological Studies. 14: 147–158.

While it's a bit dated (1960's) this article goes through a lot of the evidence for steel from around 1000 BC or before.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/502669 "Early Near Eastern Steel Swords"

I think in the era of 6th century BC most steel was Wootz steel originating in India. But I admit this isn't my particular knowledge base.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

4 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

 

Nebes discusses the fact that some of the inscriptions include the name “Karib’il Watar”, a known historical figure who lived in the 7^th century BC.  On page 114 Nebes explains that the appearance of "Karib'il Watar" in the inscriptions provides the one “absolute” date—685 BC.  Footnote 34 on page 115 explains that this is indicated in the “Katalog” as aSabB.

 

Yes. I am sorry it was another paper. So the Arabic scholar told me that some German scholar dated them after Lehi, he was talking about Vogt. I also think he was talking about this paper. Hopefully the Arabic scholar joins the discussion, it is going to get very interested if he does. '

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I just uploaded a full reply to Sam, but all that came through were these shots of the "ugly" mountainous area of the Bar'an Temple before it was excavated.  I'll try to duplicate the rest later.  Meantime, maybe Sam could explain to us why the mountains are absent here.

 Thanks, it was the Arabic scholar that told me Nehem tribe was in the ugly mountains. I will get back to you with more information. 

But for now please tell us how "b'ttr bn swdm bn nw'm nhmyn" has anything to do with the Nehem tribe. Do you have evidence that nhmyn is the Nehem tribe?  

Quote

13 DAI Bar'an 1996-1
Trager: Altarblock

Founder: b'ttr bn swdm bn nw'm nhmyn
Addressee: 'Imqh

Dwelling: Person (or Altar?) Fr't
Ruler and eponym: w-b yd "l w-b m'dkrb
Dating: aSabB

 

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've not heard of Arabian steel in that era but there's abundant evidence of steel in the Turkey region starting around 1800 BC. Wikipedia lists this as the reference: Akanuma, H. (2005). "The significance of the composition of excavated iron fragments taken from Stratum III at the site of Kaman-Kalehöyük, Turkey". Anatolian Archaeological Studies. 14: 147–158.

While it's a bit dated (1960's) this article goes through a lot of the evidence for steel from around 1000 BC or before.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/502669 "Early Near Eastern Steel Swords"

I think in the era of 6th century BC most steel was Wootz steel originating in India. But I admit this isn't my particular knowledge base.

I believe the earliest evidence for iron is from Africa. It dates to the third millennium BC. The Hittites had iron ie Turkey, but I wasn't aware of iron there before so thanks for that reference. However, carbon steel is quite a different animal. I believe the Sabaens probably ran into carbon steel in their trading, and probably brought back some items which may be found, but that is different from evidence that they smelted it. I would definitely be interested in evidence that they smelted it that early. I am not aware of any.

[clarkgoble]

11 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I believe the earliest evidence for iron is from Africa. It dates to the third millennium BC. The Hittites had iron ie Turkey, but I wasn't aware of iron there before so thanks for that reference. However, carbon steel is quite a different animal. I believe the Sabaens probably ran into carbon steel in their trading, and probably brought back some items which may be found, but that is different from evidence that they smelted it. I would definitely be interested in evidence that they smelted it that early. I am not aware of any.

Yeah for high carbon steel I personally don't know of any before the Wootz Steel which was a crucible steel. (If you've ever watched those PBS specials on ancient swords, the techniques they used in crucible steel are fascinating - anyone curious should look it up on YouTube) But again this just isn't something I know much about. It's purely coincidence I'd happen to spend an evening watching YouTube on some of this.

[RevTestament]

 

53 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've not heard of Arabian steel in that era but there's abundant evidence of steel in the Turkey region starting around 1800 BC. Wikipedia lists this as the reference: Akanuma, H. (2005). "The significance of the composition of excavated iron fragments taken from Stratum III at the site of Kaman-Kalehöyük, Turkey". Anatolian Archaeological Studies. 14: 147–158.

While it's a bit dated (1960's) this article goes through a lot of the evidence for steel from around 1000 BC or before.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/502669 "Early Near Eastern Steel Swords"

I think in the era of 6th century BC most steel was Wootz steel originating in India. But I admit this isn't my particular knowledge base.

Thanks for that jstor article. It places iron manufacture in Iraq before the time of the Jaredites. That is quite important.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I believe the earliest evidence for iron is from Africa. It dates to the third millennium BC. The Hittites had iron ie Turkey, but I wasn't aware of iron there before so thanks for that reference. However, carbon steel is quite a different animal. I believe the Sabaens probably ran into carbon steel in their trading, and probably brought back some items which may be found, but that is different from evidence that they smelted it. I would definitely be interested in evidence that they smelted it that early. I am not aware of any.

The original discovery of carburizing iron to make steel did not require smelting, but only enough heat to produce a soft bloom of iron.  Then "Smiths in the Middle East discovered that wrought iron could be turned into a much harder product by heating the shaped piece in a bed of charcoal for some time, and then quenching it in water or oil. This procedure turned the outer layers of the piece into steel, an alloy of iron and iron carbides, which was harder and less brittle than the bronze it began to replace."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ferrous_metallurgy .

A dagger with a smelted steel blade and a bronze handle, was found in a Hattic royal tomb dated about 2500 BC, at Alaca Höyük in northern Anatolia (Turkey). 

There is a nickle-steel battle-axe from Ugarit with bronze hilt decorated with gold, dated to about 1450-1350 B.C.  

King Tutankhamen's 1400 B.C. tomb disclosed a steel bladed dagger with a hilt and sheath of gold decorated with rock crystal. The dagger blade had not rusted in more than 3000 years, and we do not know how it was forged.  Cf. I Nephi 4:9.

A steel-bladed dagger was presented to Amenhotep III by King Tushratta of Mitanni, ca. 1386-1349 B.C.

Steel was being manufactured in ancient South Arabia already ca. 1100 B.C.  Gus van Beek, et al., Hajar Bin Humeid: Investigations at a Pre-Islamic Site in South Arabia. Publications of the American Foundation for the Study of Man, 5 (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1969), chapter 5. 

A quenched-steel knife is known from Cyprus, dated about 1100 BC. 

The first actual steel implement known from Palestine is an eleventh century B.C. pick from Upper Galilean Har Adir.  Amihai Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible, 360-361, photo 8.32, citing D. Davis, et al., JNES, 44 (1985), 41-52.

 A steel short-sword (blade 12-16 inches long) with ivory hilt and bronze rivets was found at Philistine Ekron (Tel Miqne).  Seymour Gitin, “Excavating Ekron: Major Philistine City Survived by Absorbing Other Cultures,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 31/6 (Nov-Dec 2005), 40-56.  See photo on p. 44.

[USU78]

6 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

Ich glaube du bist ein bissel verrückt, oder?

Bin a full bunch verrueckt.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Would you be so kind as to provide source(s) for this? Thanks in advance.

Gus van Beek, et al., Hajar Bin Humeid: Investigations at a Pre-Islamic Site in South Arabia. Publications of the American Foundation for the Study of Man, 5 (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1969), chapter 5. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes. I am sorry it was another paper. So the Arabic scholar told me that some German scholar dated them after Lehi, he was talking about Vogt. I also think he was talking about this paper. ............................... 

Yes, that is the source I cited for you earlier.

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

......................................................  

But for now please tell us how "b'ttr bn swdm bn nw'm nhmyn" has anything to do with the Nehem tribe. Do you have evidence that nhmyn is the Nehem tribe?  

Don't know.  It may simply refer to "stone-cutters" plural.  It appears to be a name from the Bar'an Temple, Bi'athtar ben Sawdam ben Naw'am.

[Gervin]

On 9/14/2017 at 1:30 PM, RevTestament said:

Nonsense. It is there if you look in the right places. Stop trying to force the BoM to fit into an archaeologically incorrect area.

The Nhm  region is actually quite close to ancient Marib. I don't know what map you're looking at dude. Marib is the closest known city to the NHM valley and was the capitol as well. It is natural to find a reference to these nearby people in Marib. That is where they would go to present their sacrifices, etc.

Why would the Lehites go there? Because they were following the Liahona, and that was the natural route east. There was a chain of several cities along the trade route that would provide needed supplies to cross the empty quarter.

I guess you can always choose to believe it was referring to the base of Jesus' operations at Capernaum - Capernaum means Nahum's city. As for me, it's the place. Their travel had been along the Red Sea until they turned east. Therefore, they could not be in Egypt or Cush since there is no way to turn east from there. They had to be in Arabia. No doubt that is the place, and the Nhm altar's are excellent archaeological evidence. You can hardly get better. It is rare to find place names in ancient archaeology.

 

If Marib is the right location, then they wandered in the wilderness for 8 years to go a distance of, what, 600 miles (to the proposed location of Bountiful)?  That's a lot of raw meat. 

[RevTestament]

16 minutes ago, Gervin said:

If Marib is the right location, then they wandered in the wilderness for 8 years to go a distance of, what, 600 miles (to the proposed location of Bountiful)?  That's a lot of raw meat. 

I don't read that from the text. I believe they were in the wilderness for 8 years. That includes Bountiful where they would have been most of the time.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Don't know.  It may simply refer to "stone-cutters" plural.  It appears to be a name from the Bar'an Temple, Bi'athtar ben Sawdam ben Naw'am.

So it is accurate to say that the NHM altars may not be related to the Nehem tribe in the mountains. 

If NHM inscriptions in North Arabia are not relevant, why can't we say the same about the NHM inscriptions in Marib? 

As for the dating it was an educated guess, but I need to verify what the Arabic scholar told me. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I just uploaded a full reply to Sam, but all that came through were these shots of the "ugly" mountainous area of the Bar'an Temple before it was excavated.  I'll try to duplicate the rest later.  Meantime, maybe Sam could explain to us why the mountains are absent here.

Okay. Let's get things clear. Baran' Temple is not in Nehem, Nehem is in dangerous mountains for travelers.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

All archaeology is based on educated guesses. Rarely does the evidence get better than it is in the case of this area.

Yes. So let me ask.  How is "b'ttr bn swdm bn nw'm nhmyn" related to Nehem in the mountains or Book of Mormon Nahom?

Quote

13 DAI Bar'an 1996-1
Trager: Altarblock

Founder: b'ttr bn swdm bn nw'm nhmyn
Addressee: 'Imqh

Dwelling: Person (or Altar?) Fr't
Ruler and eponym: w-b yd "l w-b m'dkrb
Dating: aSabB

 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Meantime, maybe Sam could explain to us why the mountains are absent here.

Here is the explanation 

"Nehem relative to west coast. Map also shows Baran temple, some 60+ miles away, as well as Ruwaiq mountains burial site, some 100+ miles away."

See more here 

https://goo.gl/3wEUGT

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't read that from the text. I believe they were in the wilderness for 8 years. That includes Bountiful where they would have been most of the time.

See map above. That map above is the reason why I don't believe Nahom was found.  

Edited September 16, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

16 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

You are not alone in those doubts as witness Clark Goble's comments, but for different reasons than the one you have presented. It is not a slam dunk, else everyone would be convinced. It is plausible, given the context from the Book of Mormon.

I don't think Nehem is Nahom, see map I found above.  

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes. So let me ask.  How is "b'ttr bn swdm bn nw'm nhmyn" related to Nehem in the mountains or Book of Mormon Nahom?

I am not a linguist nor an epigrapher, but I assume you are speaking of line 1 of the inscription on altar 2 at the Baran temple.

(1) B-<t t r / b n/ s' w d m / b n / N w < m / N h m y

(2) n / h q [n y / ]< l m q h / F r > t / b-

(3) > t t r / w-b- / < l m q h / w-b- / D t - H m y m / w-b-

(4) Y d > -< l / w-b- / M > d k r b.

That has been translated as:

Translation (1) Bi<athar son of Sawdum, son of Naw<um, the Nihmite,

(2) has dedi[cated] (to) Ilmaqah (the person) Fari>at. By

(3) >Athtar, and by Ilmaqah, and by Dhat-Himyam, and by

(4) Yada>-il, and by Ma>adi-karib.

 

I assume you are saying this translation is wrong? I think being a Nihmite in the area of NHM speaks for itself. It attests to an old family tribal name apparently in the area. The fact that the NHM name also appears in north Arabia was not hidden by Kitchen - he brought it up. I have already explained that the name in N Arabia would not be relevant after the Lehites traveled south for many days along the Red Sea. That is where you would expect to find the name, and that is where this tribal area is -not in north Arabia at a later time. These inscriptions are near a known area of NHM, attest to a family name, and are at generally the right area, and the right time. The next question is when a Hebrew hears the name, how are they going to understand it? Are they going to transliterate it into a Hebrew word? Is Nahom a Hebrew word? That is how I think Sabaen NHM became Hebrew Nahom - an old Semitic word, pronounced slightly differently apparently.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

40 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 I think being a Nihmite in the area of NHM speaks for itself. It attests to an old family tribal name apparently in the area. 

I understand, but how can we know the family "Nihmite" and Nehem in the mountains are related? According to map NHM is 60 miles away from Nehem in the mountains.   See "Considering the claim that Nehem in Yemen is the "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon" 

According to a Twitter post in Arabic "خريطة مديرية نهم مع الأسماء ؛ والمتابع لمناطق المواجهات وما ينقل من اخبار المواجهات شرق العاصمة #صنعاء"

Edited September 16, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I understand, but how can we know the family "Nihmite" and Nehem in the mountains are related? According to map NHM is 60 miles away from Nehem in the mountains.   

See "Considering the claim that Nehem in Yemen is the "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon" 

You can't for certain. How do you know a Jew is related to ancient Judah? Like I have said, it is not proof, but I believe it is strong evidence - better than could be usually hoped for - evidence that a Nihemite tribe lived in the vicinity at the time. What if an ancient Sabaen traveled to the dead sea and said we buried  our friend in Jedah. Is that reasonable evidence that they found and were in Judah? Would it help if local altars mentioned a Judaite?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

20 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You can't for certain. How do you know a Jew is related to ancient Judah? 

It is possible, but Arabic scholar says there are many other family tribal names in the Baran temple site. Perhaps the NHM inscriptions in North Arabia are more related to Nehem than NHM in the Bar'an Temple.  

Edited September 16, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

It is possible, but Arabic scholar says there are many other family tribal names in the Baran temple site. Perhaps the NHM inscriptions in North Arabia are more related to Nehem than NHM in the Bar'an Temple.  

Perhaps you could explain why someone from centuries later would make such a meaningless connection, that he didn't even know about.  That is childish in the extreme.  Your Arabic "scholar" must be a phony to make that sort of silly claim.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I understand, but how can we know the family "Nihmite" and Nehem in the mountains are related? According to map NHM is 60 miles away from Nehem in the mountains.   See "Considering the claim that Nehem in Yemen is the "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon" 

According to a Twitter post in Arabic "خريطة مديرية نهم مع الأسماء ؛ والمتابع لمناطق المواجهات وما ينقل من اخبار المواجهات شرق العاصمة #صنعاء"

I don't see a distance legend on the map.  How do you come up with 60 miles?  I say it is 25 miles.  Indeed, the vast cemetery is not one location, but an entire area just north of Sanaa, the capital.

What is worse, your friend has Clan Lehi traveling to Marib, and crossing mountains and deep gorges as the crow flies.  First, Clan Lehi did not go to Marib and had no reason to do so.  Second, people don't travel as the crow flies.  They use already extant trails and wadis (dry river beds) to make for easy travel.  You and your "friend" need a dose of realism.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

..............................................

"Nehem relative to west coast. Map also shows Baran temple, some 60+ miles away, as well as Ruwaiq mountains burial site, some 100+ miles away."

.....................................................

See map above. That map above is the reason why I don't believe Nahom was found.  

You don't provide the source for your quotation -- very bad form, Sam.  You need to provide that now.

Second, you say the map is the reason why you don't believe Nahom was found, but none of your reasoning thus far makes any sense at all.  You are blaming a map?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your Arabic "scholar" must be a phony to make that sort of silly claim.

He made no such claim, he said there are many tribal names in Baran Temple. 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

why someone from centuries later would make such a meaningless connection

It was me wondering if NHM in North Arabia is more related to Nehem/NHYM in the mountains.  Robert, do you have evidence that the Nehem region in the  middle of dangerous mountains dates to 600 BC?  

Edited September 16, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't see a distance legend on the map.  How do you come up with 60 miles?  I say it is 25 miles.  Indeed, the vast cemetery is not one location, but an entire area just north of Sanaa, the capital.

I didn't copy that map, I think it was the Arabic scholar. He sent me the link. You can check it yourself in Google maps. Your map above shows Nehem is north of Sanaa. The Bar'an Temple is in Marib. If you check Google maps the distance between Sanaa and Marib is 107 miles. 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

your friend has Clan Lehi traveling to Marib, and crossing mountains and deep gorges as the crow flies. First, Clan Lehi did not go to Marib and had no reason to do so.

He is not saying Lehi traveled to Marib, please read what he is saying https://goo.gl/3wEUGT

Lehi had no reason to go to Marib. Remember that the Bar'an Temple is in Marib?  

55 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You don't provide the source for your quotation -- very bad form, Sam.  You need to provide that now.

https://goo.gl/3wEUGT

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Indeed, the vast cemetery is not one location, but an entire area just north of Sanaa, the capital.

Okay, but that vast cemetery is not in the Nehem region and nowhere near Bar'an. To ask again Robert, do you have evidence that the Nehem region in the middle of dangerous mountains dates to 600 BC? and do you have any evidence that NHM inscription near Bar'an refers to Nehem? 

Edited September 16, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite