Where are the "isles of the sea"?

[hagoth7]

In one history of the faith of my fathers, in an opening chapter, I likened 9/11 and the two towers (three actually) to the dawn of the Viking Age.

A perception by the supposedly-attacked culture of being the victim. When the opposite was actually the case.

Human nature. Self deception. Or being led astray by a media that has sold out and is no longer free.

To see this in broader contrast, I suggest reviewing All the Shah's Men, and then rethinking America's role in the MIddle East. This nation has been the one fomenting war. This nation has encouraged a generation of young Muslims to rise up furious or sad...rather than viewing us as friends. 

Ditto with the Norse and the VIking Age. The kingdoms of England and France had poked the bear one time too many. And Winnie can and does summon berzerker (bear-shirt) rage...when needed. Can fight like dragons...as the Book of Mormon tells us. Mamas can become angry mother bears...amazons. 

I invite you to go see the Vikings exhibit in SLC with that framework...

And in case our muslim neighbors didn't catch the earlier references...I don't believe their culture had a thing to do with 9/11...they you are innocent...but that it was a false-flag op...blamed on your culture for personal gain...akin to what the worst of the European settlers did when they dressed up like Indians, attacked their neighbors, and the next day blamed the Indians for having done it...to justify brutally seizing Indian land.

I consider the MIddle East an isle of the sea. 

D&C 121 

"...and many of them are our brethren..."   (the rest, of course, are simply of the other gender)

http://www.beowulfinstitute.com/IbnFadlan.html

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

58 minutes ago, USU78 said:

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle admits it.

No.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle claims it.  

(Gomphothere-sized difference beteen claiming somthing...and assuming such claim to be true...minus a usually-worthwhile trust-but-verify method.)

They admitted and defended title by conquest of the bulk of the island.

1. When did Saxons enter England.

2. How long after that was the entry you reference written?

[USU78]

1 minute ago, hagoth7 said:

No.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle claims it.  

(Gomphothere-sized difference beteen claiming somthing...and assuming such claim to be true...minus a usually-worthwhile trust-but-verify method.)

1. When did Saxons enter England.

2. How long after that was the entry you reference written?

A claim is an admission if the claim is against the interests of the claimant.  If I put myself in a bad light, that light is exceptionally reliable as evidence.

Just like the night of long knives incident, which was grossly violative of the alleged high warrior values of the Germans.  The story is reliable because it precisely goes against the interests of the Germans who pulled the terrible trick.  [Cf the murder of Hogni in the Poetic Edda]

Who ordered the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle?  The Anglo-Saxon King, to defend the primacy of the Anglo-Saxon claim against others, especially the Norse.  And their cousins in Normandie.

I daresay the "invitation" by Vortigern could be seen wholly an invention, and the invaders invented the story to legitimize their naked aggression.  Like Putin in Ukraina and Georgia.

Or maybe it was so muddled that it doesn't matter.

[hagoth7]

While on this note, there's the isle referred to in Tennyson's Lady of Shalott.

And the reference to Camelot. (yikes! repeated veiled references to cameloids [incl. alpacas and llams]], that in Old English were called olfands [elephants].)

"Antelopes, zebras, and camels, O my!"

Anyone wishing to see an important lleaf from Tennyson's poem, view the last 10 seconds of The Band Pery's official youtube video of "If I Die Young"....a reference to their cultural tradition (and indirecdtly to Shield/Scyld) of being buried at river/sea in a boat...a cultural memory *intentionally instilled by Scyld* of their homeland across the many waters.

Any further interested can snatch up tickest to awesome Band Perry coming live to the Sandy Ampitheater this weekend. Would someone be willing to ask Kimberly what inspired the song's lyrics. And please hand her a book of mormon...perhaps with links to a thing or two like this thread?

Bueller? Anyone? Please return and report.

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

26 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I daresay the "invitation" by Vortigern could be seen wholly an invention, and the invaders invented the story to legitimize their naked aggression.  Like Putin in Ukraina and Georgia.

A Potemkin history? I see your intended point.

And I raise you this: to weigh your premise in the scales, what do you make of Danemordet in 1002 (and subsequent events in England), especially in light of things like Esther and Mordecai? 

And this. The Saxon account of Hadegoth, for example, specifically tells that they received word of their impending attack on them in advance...and that Hadegoth and his people then had to choose stand their ground and fight, or flight, or kneel and lay down their swords in the hope of finding/mustering charity among their enemies. So *that* aspect of the Saaxon account also aligns precisely with what  we hear of Mordecai and Esther..."for such a time as this."...*and* of the converted Lamanites.  

Throughout history, advisors and other warmongers have repeatedly tried to make Israel their scapegoat.

Do we learn from history? Or do we shrug it off?

What happens when we fail to learn from history?

26 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Or maybe it was so muddled that it doesn't matter.

Truth is truth. 
We can know the truth in all things.

All things can be discerned.

 

The "maybe...it doesn't matter" is precisely how Tacitus referred to the account of the son of God visiting tje poples of northern Europe. He essentially said it was more pious to *not* investigate, and to just let things be. A subtle sweeping of a sacred things under the rug...to be trampled under foot.

 

Ditto with many pastors over the years who have encouraged congregants not to bother studying Daniel and Revelation..that such things are for the irration...that such things are too obscure and hard to be understood to have any possible relvenacne/meaning in one's Chrisitan walk. Despite Christ's injunction to understand the prophet Daniel. Despite his promise to "bless" those who attempted likewise with Revelation.

 

History is in the same boat...when it comes to those on the isles of the sea...and our own present reality.

Ignorance is not bliss. It is *not* safety.

The founding fathers said that preserving our very freedoms hinge on an educated public...not on ignorance.

Whoso readeth let him understand....  

And "Let no man count them as small things...."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/123.16?lang=eng#p15

 

The present is a fractal of the past. And will eventually repeat...unless we sit up and take notice.

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

There are those who believe the sequence of events selected by Mormon/Moroni for our day...a day which they saw in advance...was done to specifically teach us things we needed to know....

...that the historical events they provided needed to be likened unto ourselves if we were to benefit.

If you don't view the early chapters of 3 Nephi in that light.....

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[clarkgoble]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is there also an island theory?

The only islands big enough would be Cuba or Dominican Republic/Haiti but neither really matches up with the internal geography.

[hagoth7]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is there also an island theory?

There's the Maori island in the South Pacific that's apparently a house boat...cause it's portable.

So it's my theory that it can move.

And that the people there have amazing faith.

And that it is the most beautiful country I've had the privilege to visit (Canada and U.S and Europe - you're beautiful, and I luv ya', but just sayin')

And that the people there are Nephite and Lamanite/Ammonite descendants.  

And that there be acual elves there too. And sneaky hobbitses (who are usually in primary)

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[USU78]

6 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

A Potemkin history? I see your intended point.

And I raise you this: to weigh your premise in the scales, what do you make of Danemordet in 1002 (and subsequent events in England), especially in light of things like Esther and Mordecai? 

And this. The Saxon account of Hadegoth, for example, specifically tells that they received word of their impending attack on them in advance...and that Hadegoth and his people then had to choose stand their ground and fight, or flight, or kneel and lay down their swords in the hope of finding/mustering charity among their enemies. So *that* aspect of the Saaxon account also aligns precisely with what  we hear of Mordecai and Esther..."for such a time as this."...*and* of the converted Lamanites.  

Throughout history, advisors and other warmongers have repeatedly tried to make Israel their scapegoat.

Do we learn from history? Or do we shrug it off?

What happens when we fail to learn from history?

Truth is truth. 
We can know the truth in all things.

All things can be discerned.

 

The "maybe...it doesn't matter" is precisely how Tacitus referred to the account of the son of God visiting tje poples of northern Europe. He essentially said it was more pious to *not* investigate, and to just let things be. A subtle sweeping of a sacred things under the rug...to be trampled under foot.

Ditto with many pastors over the years who have encouraged congregants not to bother studying Daniel and Revelation..that such things are for the irration...that such things are too obscure and hard to be understood to have any possible relvenacne/meaning in one's Chrisitan walk. Despite Christ's injunction to understand the prophet Daniel. Despite his promise to "bless" those who attempted likewise with Revelation.

History is in the same boat...when it comes to those on the isles of the sea...and our own present reality.

Ignorance is not bliss. It is *not* safety.

The founding fathers said that preserving our very freedoms hinge on an educated public...not on ignorance.

Whoso readeth let him understand....  

And "Let no man count them as small things...."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/123.16?lang=eng#p15

The present is a fractal of the past. And will eventually repeat...unless we sit up and take notice.

Let me explain my "muddled":

Every people, in telling its own story, puts itself, for the most part, in the best possible light.  I fully expect my Norse ancestors to tell the story from their perspective, with themselves as the heroes.  The same for my Welsh ancestors.  Same again for my Saxon ancestors.  And my Norman ancestors.  I am fully the child of each of these four and as entitled to claim heroic heirloom from each source.  No version is completely true, and no version is completely false.  Laman and Lemuel had a point.  So did the representatives of Israel after Solomon died.  Maybe Rehoboam's youthful advisors had a legitimate point as well.  The stories their various descendants told are not, repeat not reliable in toto.

Of course the Saxons will blame the Welsh.

And the Welsh will blame the Saxons.

And both blame the Danes.

Genetically, though not sociologically or [at least closely] linguistically, these peoples weren't much different from one another.  Just another wave of the same old mishmash of tribes headed in the same direction for the same reasons, speaking variations on the same language.

I credit the stories of Jeremiah in Spain and Ireland as much as the next folklore enthusiast.  I mist up when I hear or sing Jerusalem.  And I'm not even a Brit, except by blood.  That doesn't mean there's even a bit of truth to the tale.  Doesn't matter to me.  The issue is why is the tale preserved and why is it told.

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

The only islands big enough would be Cuba or Dominican Republic/Haiti but neither really matches up with the internal geography.

I think he meant Israel being scattered to the isles of the sea. Not any one speciifc island.

As a simple corrollary to the broader Israelite/Nephite/Lamanite diaspora.

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

45 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Let me explain my "muddled":

Every people, in telling its own story, puts itself, for the most part, in the best possible light.  I fully expect my Norse ancestors to tell the story from their perspective, with themselves as the heroes.  The same for my Welsh ancestors.  Same again for my Saxon ancestors.  And my Norman ancestors.  I am fully the child of each of these four and as entitled to claim heroic heirloom from each source.  No version is completely true, and no version is completely false.  Laman and Lemuel had a point.  So did the representatives of Israel after Solomon died.  Maybe Rehoboam's youthful advisors had a legitimate point as well.  The stories their various descendants told are not, repeat not reliable in toto.

Of course the Saxons will blame the Welsh.

And the Welsh will blame the Saxons.

And both blame the Danes.

Genetically, though not sociologically or [at least closely] linguistically, these peoples weren't much different from one another.  Just another wave of the same old mishmash of tribes headed in the same direction for the same reasons, speaking variations on the same language.

I credit the stories of Jeremiah in Spain and Ireland as much as the next folklore enthusiast.  I mist up when I hear or sing Jerusalem.  And I'm not even a Brit, except by blood.  That doesn't mean there's even a bit of truth to the tale.  Doesn't matter to me.  The issue is why is the tale preserved and why is it told.

The kicker with folklore is that before history was recorded, and long after...history was passed down through song...just as it is today in "We have been born as Nefi of old..."

You learn the song once as a kid...either in class, or from your parents...and you remember it.

Ditto with those who have an ear/mind for memorizing poems written with specific beats (akin to iambic pentameter) specifically designed for memory aid.

Folklore only seems wiggidy when it's handed down to us in narrative form.

Would be more believable/understandable/pure if more of the actual songs/poems were actually given us, as they are in things like Beowulf and several other sources.

Those who discount folklore as pseudohistory haven'tt thought much about our primary songs. Or our sacrament hymns. Or the memorized passages and poems shared from the pulpit each week.

And I'm not saying that creative license wasn't taken at times to encase the account in a framework that would better survive the passge of time. But what's preserved in that amber...including the origins of Amboirix...are important things.

Is gibberish sometimes shared from the pulpit? Yep. But that's the kind of stuff that would be more likely filtered out...akin to Nefi's admonition to only use space on the plates for sacred things. The real stuff, in song and poetry, is the stuff more likely to be worked into rhyme/verse, preserved, and passed down from generation to generation.  

Case in point the recent Doberman thread. Some people pointed out minor discrepancies in the different sources. More importantly, it was demonstrated that the 7 main points of the story, including the detail, were remarkably retained in each version.

And that's just narrative. Had it been embedded like amber in song or poetry, the correlations would have been even more exact.

That's the gospel of oral history, according to me. (Ask one of the First Nations/Peoples descendants, including the Maori, if you think I'm just blowing smoke [signals].   (I am...and it's a peace pipe.) 

Tacitus revealed an important truth when he said, contempoorary with the last messages of the NT, that the Germanic peoples sang of their fathers and of the son of God (who visited them) before wading into battle. Battle hymns. And hymns awaiting a greater peace...the kind of peace an actual Frodo (his name meaning "Peace") was said to establish... 

If that's a sufficient starting place for most, super. If some want/need other sources for the benefit of others whose tipping point to prayer/increased faith goes beyond this, consider Gisli Sigurdsson's "The Medieval Icelandic Saga and Oral Tradition - a discourse on method." One of these days, I might even finish reading it...

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[USU78]

36 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

The kicker with folklore is that before history was recorded, and long after...history was passed down through song...just as it is today in "We have been born as Nefi of old..."

You learn the song once as a kid...either in class, or from your parents...and you remember it.

Ditto with those who have an ear/mind for memorizing poems written with specific beats (akin to iambic pentameter) specifically designed for memory aid.

Folklore only seems wiggidy when it's handed down to us in narrative form.

Would be more believable/understandable/pure if more of the actual songs/poems were actually given us, as they are in things like Beowulf and several other sources.

Those who discount folklore as pseudohistory haven'tt thought much about our primary songs. Or our sacrament hymns. Or the memorized passages and poems shared from the pulpit each week.

And I'm not saying that creative license wasn't taken at times to encase the account in a framework that would better survive the passge of time. But what's preserved in that amber...including the origins of Amboirix...are important things.

Is gibberish sometimes shared from the pulpit? Yep. But that's the kind of stuff that would be more likely filtered out...akin to Nefi's admonition to only use space on the plates for sacred things. The real stuff, in song and poetry, is the stuff more likely to be worked into rhyme/verse, preserved, and passed down from generation to generation.  

Case in point the recent Doberman thread. Some people pointed out minor discrepancies in the different sources. More importantly, it was demonstrated that the 7 main points of the story, including the detail, were remarkably retained in each version.

And that's just narrative. Had it been embedded like amber in song or poetry, the correlations would have been even more exact.

That's the gospel of oral history, according to me. (Ask one of the First Nations/Peoples descendants, including the Maori, if you think I'm just blowing smoke [signals].   (I am...and it's a peace pipe.) 

Tacitus revealed an important truth when he said, contempoorary with the last messages of the NT, that the Germanic peoples sang of their fathers and of the son of God (who visited them) before wading into battle. Battle hymns. And hymns awaiting a greater peace...the kind of peace an actual Frodo (his name meaning "Peace") was said to establish... 

If that's a sufficient starting place for most, super. If some want/need other sources for the benefit of others whose tipping point to prayer/increased faith goes beyond this, consider Gisli Sigurdsson's "The Medieval Icelandic Saga and Oral Tradition - a discourse on method." One of these days, I might even finish reading it...

I'm a lot older than that there song.  Beowulf and I were on a first name basis.  I taught El Cid to ride a bike.  Sigurd and I were in the same class in high school.

And my father taught me quite early on Gounod's ditty:

Glory and love to the men of old!

Their sons may copy their virtues bold!

Courage in heart and a sword in hand!

Ready to fight and ready to die for Fatherland!

[hagoth7]

3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm a lot older than that there song.  Beowulf and I were on a first name basis.  I taught El Cid to ride a bike.  Sigurd and I were in the same class in high school.

And my father taught me quite early on Gounod's ditty:

Glory and love to the men of old!

Their sons may copy their virtues bold!

Courage in heart and a sword in hand!

Ready to fight and ready to die for Fatherland!

 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I think he meant Israel being scattered to the isles of the sea. Not any one speciifc island.

As a simple corrollary to the broader Israelite/Nephite/Lamanite diaspora.

No, I meant Jacob saying "and we are upon an isle of the sea."

[hagoth7]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, I meant Jacob saying "and we are upon an isle of the sea."

I currently take the word isle in Isaiah, to mean coasts..shore.

And, for now at least, I take Jacob to mean essetntallly that same thing.. 

Believing that Joseph left it worded that way, ambiguously, on purpose.

At this juncture, pretty much doesn't matter whether we take it to mean literal island or shoreland...which is literally how early Nephites/Ammonites in northern Europe referrred to their form homeland, and is the meaning to some of the names given to their temporary homes along their path across northern Europe.

As to that word being taken to mean "island", words are imprecise.  

Anciently, Atlantis and Vinland/Frisland were assumed to be isles, and were shown as such on most early maps. Bbut the former was said to be associated with land the size of two Old-World continents...the suggested holm in another thread (who offered that?) may be helpful. From high up, .Early Europeans were convinced there was a passage to the Pacific...and finding it was, bizarely enough, one of the Virginia colony's three main objectives. Oddly, survival wasn't one of the three.  Then there's perspective. From high up, the Americas are just one big isle. And most ancient writers deemed eurasia and africe/libya to be completely surrounded by water...an isle.

As I've said elsewhere, I believe Joseph intentionally withheld a number of things from us, for our longterm benefit. In a similar vein, I believe God and/or Joseph may have deemed ambiguity on *Ithis* word for our temporary benefit, akin to other quasi-conveyed words, like curel-lom.. A quarrel over a lama...a trivial contention among us, or thorn in our side, (Hebrew "rib"), which Maidservant was kind enough to remove/resolve. (I stand wih Maidservant and deem the curelom issue resolved...your results might vary).

Consider 1828 Webster. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/isle

Noted that Isaiah 42:4 is mentioned.

I can see the Americas aligning sufficiently well with Jacob's statement in each and every meaning offered by Webster.. That said, and more importantly, the ongoing ambiguity, in my view,  especially aligns with Webster's final definition. The ambiguity serves a similar purpose. It's not the only way to look at things. Tuhan's insight shared elsewhere might be a helpful missing piece of the puzzle, and I genuinely hope it is. I might share another wrinkle at some point down the road. But that will need to suffice, for now.

Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7

[Rajah Manchou]

22 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

The only islands big enough would be Cuba or Dominican Republic/Haiti but neither really matches up with the internal geography.

Nothing in the Americas really matches up with the internal geography.

Do you know of a place that does match up?

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Nothing in the Americas really matches up with the internal geography.

Do you know of a place that does match up?

When you say doesn't really match up what are your big problems with the Yucatan to Chiapas/Guatemala region? It's not perfect but seems to line up reasonably well.

[Rajah Manchou]

56 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

When you say doesn't really match up what are your big problems with the Yucatan to Chiapas/Guatemala region? It's not perfect but seems to line up reasonably well.

Only if you turn the compass 90 degrees, and ignore the naming conventions of the seas.

If it did line up there wouldn't be so many variations on the map, including disagreement about which river is Sidon, and where Zarahemla would be located, and whether the eastern cities are way over on the Caribbean coast or way north on the Gulf of Mexico. 

Where do you place the cities of Nephihah, Lehi, Morianton, Omner, Gid, Mulek and Moroni?

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Only if you turn the compass 90 degrees, and ignore the naming conventions of the seas.

That was true with Sorenson's initial model but not more recent ones. To my eyes more contemporary models have pretty well dealt with that.

From the East to the West: The Problem of Directions in the Book of Mormon

Quote

Where do you place the cities of Nephihah, Lehi, Morianton, Omner, Gid, Mulek and Moroni?

I don't think you need to have exact places for them to get the general geography working. 

[hagoth7]

On 7/18/2017 at 11:34 AM, hagoth7 said:

Let's riff on the Viking "invasions" to test the strength of your premise a wee bit.

You do realize that Charlemagne unleashed a vicious war against the Frisians to his NE and the Saxons to his east flank the latter of which dragged on for 30 years. And in both cases, those refusing to bow to a tyrant withdrew to Denmark.

The Viking "invasion" was, as my brother once put it, a response to their hornet's nest being swatted. A resonse to those repeatedly attempting to spread their versoin of Christianity by the sword...repeatedly forcing tithing and baptism on others under punishment of death. Thousands being killed in the Carolingian campaigns of conquest.

 

And true to form, Charlemagne and his sons (who had usurped the Merovingian throne because the Merovingians were considered too peaceful) then playing the victim for the backlash from the north from a repeatedly wronged/aggreived people. Argh.

Most hiistory was written by brigands. Bullies.

Don't drink their koolaid.  Or at least spit it out and reconsider.

For those who prefer to continue drinking tradiitional history, instead of reach for an antedote (the faith of our fathers)...may I suggest, as a corrective, a quote from a movie I rewatched last weekend:

 

[Alan]

On ‎18‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 8:35 PM, USU78 said:

Let me explain my "muddled":

Every people, in telling its own story, puts itself, for the most part, in the best possible light.  I fully expect my Norse ancestors to tell the story from their perspective, with themselves as the heroes.  The same for my Welsh ancestors.  Same again for my Saxon ancestors.  And my Norman ancestors.  I am fully the child of each of these four and as entitled to claim heroic heirloom from each source.  No version is completely true, and no version is completely false.  Laman and Lemuel had a point.  So did the representatives of Israel after Solomon died.  Maybe Rehoboam's youthful advisors had a legitimate point as well.  The stories their various descendants told are not, repeat not reliable in toto.

Of course the Saxons will blame the Welsh.

And the Welsh will blame the Saxons.

And both blame the Danes.

Genetically, though not sociologically or [at least closely] linguistically, these peoples weren't much different from one another.  Just another wave of the same old mishmash of tribes headed in the same direction for the same reasons, speaking variations on the same language.

I credit the stories of Jeremiah in Spain and Ireland as much as the next folklore enthusiast.  I mist up when I hear or sing Jerusalem.  And I'm not even a Brit, except by blood.  That doesn't mean there's even a bit of truth to the tale.  Doesn't matter to me.  The issue is why is the tale preserved and why is it told.

One truth you really need to understand my friend:  the Welsh are definitely to blame.

But enough of this nonsense. We should all unite in one great brotherhood, lay down our differences, embrace our diversity, forge a great alliance........ and attack the French!

[hagoth7]

On 7/18/2017 at 1:35 PM, USU78 said:

...I credit the stories of Jeremiah in Spain and Ireland as much as the next folklore enthusiast.  I mist up when I hear or sing Jerusalem.  And I'm not even a Brit, except by blood.  That doesn't mean there's even a bit of truth to the tale.  Doesn't matter to me.  The issue is why is the tale preserved and why is it told.

To add a wee bit more mist, I highly recommend this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Lost-Disciples-George-Jowett-ebook/dp/B0078OY4VM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1500560459&sr=8-2&keywords=jowett+britain

Decades ago, my wife's grandparents handed me their copy of this book as a loan. 

Loved it so much that I later bought my own copy.

[hagoth7]

29 minutes ago, Alan said:

One truth you really need to understand my friend:  the Welsh are definitely to blame.

But enough of this nonsense. We should all unite in one great brotherhood, lay down our differences, embrace our diversity, forge a great alliance........ and attack the French!

Cue: Monty Python:

SIlly English kniggits......

Hoping that instead of asking you to "leave this instant", that they instead pull  up a chair for you, place a bowl of elderberry ice cream in front of you, and ask that you linger wee bit longer. (Though they may still taunt you for being English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish...and rightfully so.) 

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

One truth you really need to understand my friend:  the Welsh are definitely to blame.

But enough of this nonsense. We should all unite in one great brotherhood, lay down our differences, embrace our diversity, forge a great alliance........ and attack the French!

Food fight?

Pome-granate, originally from the Middle East, means either apple-seed, or hand grenade (the so-called-holy hand grenade used to dispatch the dreaded white rabbit). You choose. 

Which reminds me, while in training at boot camp, just before our live hand grenade experrience, one of our dril sergeants told us that one troop, having pulled the pin and winding up to throw, had recently got distracted by something his drill sergeant next to him had said, turned to acknowledge, and wound up to throw again iuntil it was too late for both of them. Don't know if what he told us was true, but it was true in that it helped sober us all until we had marched back from that training. (And after telling us that account, our drill sergeants were atypically *very* polite to everyone *until* that training task was in the hopper.) 

I prefer a food fight.

Cue: inklings of happy thought:

 

Parum-pa-pum-pum.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Alan said:

One truth you really need to understand my friend:  the Welsh are definitely to blame.

But enough of this nonsense. We should all unite in one great brotherhood, lay down our differences, embrace our diversity, forge a great alliance........ and attack the French!

Dang Frogs. 🐸 🐸 🐸