KJV in the Book of Mormon

[clarkgoble]

14 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Clark, Thanks for your input. I agree that Moroni was probably talking about some type of compressed script, but I did not get the impression from the text that the Brass Plates were written in that script, although they may have been written in some type of Egyptian script rather than the glyphs.

It's definitely ambiguous. For the record I don't think the brass plates and the Book of Mormon were written in the same script/language either. I'm more just noting the arguments for that. I'm actually completely fine with the brass plates not being a codex at all but having a form more akin to scrolls.

[cinepro]

14 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Can you point out to me any text anywhere (besides the Book of Mormon" where a person has made up a bunch of words which somehow turned out to be good words in a language that neither he (nor most anyone else at the time) did not know? Especially personal names? You have said it should be easy. Give it a try.

Glenn

 

 

Pearl Curran did it:

https://archive.org/stream/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/sorrytaleastory01currgoog_djvu.txt

 

There are two theories regarding the origin of the book.  One is that it was divinely revealed to her by the spirit "Patience Worth."  The other is that Pearl Curran wrote it on her own abilities.  The full backstory is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patience_Worth

Here are some of the proper nouns found in "The Sorry Tale":

"Hatte" - Similar to "Hatim", an ancient Arabic name.

"Rhea" - Similar to "Re" from Egyptian Mythology

"Caanthus" - From obscure Greek Mythology

"Panda" - Similar to "Panna", a Hungarian name

"Jod" - Possible derivation of "Jodocus", an ancient Celtic name

"Nada" - Arabic

"Paulia" - Similar to "Paulina", ancient Roman name.

"Arminius" - Ancient Germanic

"Indra" - Hindi

"Caclius" - Similar to "Caecilius", ancient Roman

https://www.behindthename.com/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those are just the ones I found in a quick search.

So what are the odds that an uneducated housewife in the early 1900s knew Arabic, ancient Egyptian, Greek, Hungarian, ancient Celtic, Ancient Germanic, and Hindi?  Those are all direct hits for ancient names that were not well known in St Louis in the early 1900s;  what are the odds that she could have guessed those?  It would be in the billions, and you could ask 1,000 people to try and none of them could ever guess a list of names that are Greek, Hungarian, Egyptian, Roman and Celtic.

So, based on this evidence, would you say that you believe the book was dictated by the ancient spirit Patience Worth?  Would you say that you know the book was received in such a fashion?

 

 

 

 

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, cinepro said:

Those are just the ones I found in a quick search.

So what are the odds that an uneducated housewife in the early 1900s knew Arabic, ancient Egyptian, Greek, Hungarian, ancient Celtic, Ancient Germanic, and Hindi?  Those are all direct hits for ancient names that were not well known in St Louis in the early 1900s;  what are the odds that she could have guessed those?  It would be in the billions, and you could ask 1,000 people to try and none of them could ever guess a list of names that are Greek, Hungarian, Egyptian, Roman and Celtic.

So, based on this evidence, would you say that you believe the book was dictated by the ancient spirit Patience Worth?  Would you say that you know the book was received in such a fashion?

 

I did just a bit of research on your names. Here is what I found"

Hatte: Proper surname. Also in the Webster’s 1913 Dictionary

Rhea: Female personal name. A Goddess in Greek mythology. Also one of the moons of the planet Saturn. Also a genus of birds so named in 1752. Found in the 1913 Webster’s Dictionary

Caanthus:  I remember the story dimly but none of the names except Apollo. Found in “Pausanias's Description of Greece, Volume 1”

Panda: Also a (well known) animal indigenous to northeast Asia.

Jod: Medieval Latin spelling of Hebrew letter yodh

Nada: also “a quantity of no importance” from the 1913 Webster’s dictionary

Paulia: A genus of fungi within the Lichinaceae family. Also a feminine personal name. Also a species of purple African violets (St. Paulia).

Arminius: Name not German. Was a member of a Germanic tribe who obtained Roman citizenship during his service in the Roman army: Also a Dutch theologian [Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609)]: Also a German gun maker founded in 1899.

Indra: Yep “Indra - chief god of the Rig-Veda; god of rain and thunder”. Found in the 1913 Webster’s dictionary.

Caclius: A character in the "Decline of the Roman Republic, volume 3"

 

With the exception of "Jod" I found that each of the other names could be found in publications readily accessible to the public at the time of the publication of "A Sorry Tale." None of them were words from a language that was unknown at the time. None of them were Egyptian. I think you missed the mark there. But the Pearl Curran/Patience Worth story is interesting, as well as that of Geraldine Cummins. But that would be for another thread.

Glenn

 

[cinepro]

17 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

With the exception of "Jod" I found that each of the other names could be found in publications readily accessible to the public at the time of the publication of "A Sorry Tale." None of them were words from a language that was unknown at the time. None of them were Egyptian. I think you missed the mark there. But the Pearl Curran/Patience Worth story is interesting, as well as that of Geraldine Cummins. But that would be for another thread.

Glenn

 

 

I'm shocked that you've changed the conditions for your challenge after I posted my response!  I totally did not see that coming.   You didn't say "from a language that was unknown at the time".  You said "in a language the he (or most anyone else) did not know at the time."

Of course those names could be easily found with the internet.   But Pearl Curran didn't have a huge library of books, and friends never described her studying or researching such names.  And she dictated without reference to notes or prepared manuscripts.

But at least the next time you hear someone that isn't impressed by the name "hits" in the Book of Mormon, you'll understand exactly why.  Because now you've used the same, normal thought process that any rational person would to examine such a claim (and perhaps even unintentionally changed your original "challenge" to try convince yourself that it's still different).  Once you move away from the overwhelming desire (need?) to find evidence for a conclusion, things look really different, don't they?

Edited April 30, 2017 by cinepro

[Glenn101]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

 

I'm shocked that you've changed the conditions for your challenge after I posted my response!  I totally did not see that coming.   You didn't say "from a language that was unknown at the time".  You said "in a language the he (or most anyone else) did not know at the time."

Of course those names could be easily found with the internet.   But Pearl Curran didn't have a huge library of books, and friends never described her studying or researching such names.  And she dictated without reference to notes or prepared manuscripts.

But at least the next time you hear someone that isn't impressed by the name "hits" in the Book of Mormon, you'll understand exactly why.  Because now you've used the same, normal thought process that any rational person would to examine such a claim (and perhaps even unintentionally changed your original "challenge" to try convince yourself that it's still different).  Once you move away from the overwhelming desire (need?) to find evidence for a conclusion, things look really different, don't they?

It seems that you have not been reading my posts very carefully.In an earlier post I had said:

"Has it ever been observed where a person makes up a name and it matches a name in a language that the person does not know and where the actual translation of the language is in the very beginning stages?  Maybe someone who wishes to prove a point could research available texts up to the time of Joseph and see if another such feat has been accomplished. After all, according to the law of very large numbers, it should have happened at least once, if not several times. We need to use completely dissimilar languages if we are to be fair about it. "

And again. in a later post I said:

"Can you point out to me any text anywhere (besides the Book of Mormon) where a person has made up a bunch of words which somehow turned out to be good words in a language that neither he (nor most anyone else at the time) did not know? Especially personal names? You have said it should be easy. Give it a try."

I have not moved the goal posts. I have only identified the goal posts. If you will note, all of my example were really direct hits that have been identified as Egyptian and not just "near enough." The transliteration of the Egyptian scripts on the Rosetta Stone were not completed until 1822. It was many more years before Egyptologists were able to read the Egyptian hieroglyphics with any degree of certainty. The identification of the Egyptian names that appear in the Book of Mormon though, would logically have come after the Book of Mormon was published.

As to Pearl Curran, she did not start the Patience Worth persona until 1913. And she supposedly quit school after a nervous breakdown when she was thirteen, but at least one biographic sketch begs to differ on her educational background.

'Actually, Curran's education was probably far better than that of most of her contemporaries. She had been taught in various public and private schools, a Catholic academy, and several Protestant Sunday schools. Anecdotes suggest that she was a precocious learner during childhood. Furthermore, she was given fairly extensive tutoring and, during adolescence, began a prolonged period of musical training in both voice and piano. In the six years prior to her marriage at 24, she studied and worked in Chicago each winter, occasionally playing the piano in her medium-uncle's spiritualist church--despite her aversion to that "most unpleasant" atmosphere.'

She need not have tried to

As I noted, I was able to find each of you direct hits (although most of them were not direct but similar enough for one playing the close enough game) in publications accessible to the general public, not esoteric tomes. They also were without context in the languages but are a hodge-podge from several different languages (many of them also English). One of the other criteria I identified earlier was context.

I do not thank any rational philologist would adduce any significance to those names but at least one rational scholar (Albright) has noted and was puzzled by names in the Book of Mormon which he readily identified as Egyptian, and have not been found in any other language that I am aware of. To me you appear to be doing a lot of reductionism to try to make what you have offered equal to the goal posts I identified. The names I selected were unique to the Book of Mormon at the time it was published. I don't have to change anything to try to show a difference between the words in "The Sorry Tale" and the "Book of Mormon."

 

Just wanted to add, the Pearl Curran type of argument as to how KJV language or rather Early Modern English got into the Book of Mormon, i.e. automatic writing, has been discussed earlier, months, maybe a year or two ago on this board. My position might surprise you.

Glenn

Edited May 1, 2017 by Glenn101
Keep having additional thoughts

[LittleNipper]

On 4/28/2017 at 3:08 PM, cinepro said:

Pearl Curran did it:

https://archive.org/stream/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/sorrytaleastory01currgoog_djvu.txt

 

There are two theories regarding the origin of the book.  One is that it was divinely revealed to her by the spirit "Patience Worth."  The other is that Pearl Curran wrote it on her own abilities.  The full backstory is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patience_Worth

Here are some of the proper nouns found in "The Sorry Tale":

"Hatte" - Similar to "Hatim", an ancient Arabic name.

"Rhea" - Similar to "Re" from Egyptian Mythology

"Caanthus" - From obscure Greek Mythology

"Panda" - Similar to "Panna", a Hungarian name

"Jod" - Possible derivation of "Jodocus", an ancient Celtic name

"Nada" - Arabic

"Paulia" - Similar to "Paulina", ancient Roman name.

"Arminius" - Ancient Germanic

"Indra" - Hindi

"Caclius" - Similar to "Caecilius", ancient Roman

https://www.behindthename.com/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those are just the ones I found in a quick search.

So what are the odds that an uneducated housewife in the early 1900s knew Arabic, ancient Egyptian, Greek, Hungarian, ancient Celtic, Ancient Germanic, and Hindi?  Those are all direct hits for ancient names that were not well known in St Louis in the early 1900s;  what are the odds that she could have guessed those?  It would be in the billions, and you could ask 1,000 people to try and none of them could ever guess a list of names that are Greek, Hungarian, Egyptian, Roman and Celtic.

So, based on this evidence, would you say that you believe the book was dictated by the ancient spirit Patience Worth?  Would you say that you know the book was received in such a fashion?

 

 

 

 

Jabberwocky

Related Poem Content Details

BY LEWIS CARROLL

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves 

      Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: 

All mimsy were the borogoves, 

      And the mome raths outgrabe. 

 

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son! 

      The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! 

Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun 

      The frumious Bandersnatch!” 

 

He took his vorpal sword in hand; 

      Long time the manxome foe he sought— 

So rested he by the Tumtum tree 

      And stood awhile in thought. 

 

And, as in uffish thought he stood, 

      The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame, 

Came whiffling through the tulgey wood, 

      And burbled as it came! 

 

One, two! One, two! And through and through 

      The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! 

He left it dead, and with its head 

      He went galumphing back. 

 

“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? 

      Come to my arms, my beamish boy! 

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!” 

      He chortled in his joy. 

 

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves 

      Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: 

All mimsy were the borogoves, 

      And the mome raths outgrabe.

[LittleNipper]

There were Arabs in the Americas at that time, and Jews, and Egyptians. Any person writing a novel would do some research. America was in the Age of Enlightenment and libraries existed (especially church libraries). Remember there was no TV or radio. The wealthy all had libraries or they were considered uncouth!

It is very interesting to note that America's first  author of renown lived in upstate New York in a town his father named Cooper's Town. The fact the James Fenimore Cooper (born in Burlington City, N.J.) wrote the Last of the Mohicans ---- goes without saying.  

Edited May 6, 2017 by LittleNipper

[cinepro]

On 4/30/2017 at 6:16 PM, Glenn101 said:

It seems that you have not been reading my posts very carefully.In an earlier post I had said:

"Has it ever been observed where a person makes up a name and it matches a name in a language that the person does not know and where the actual translation of the language is in the very beginning stages?  Maybe someone who wishes to prove a point could research available texts up to the time of Joseph and see if another such feat has been accomplished. After all, according to the law of very large numbers, it should have happened at least once, if not several times. We need to use completely dissimilar languages if we are to be fair about it. "

And again. in a later post I said:

"Can you point out to me any text anywhere (besides the Book of Mormon) where a person has made up a bunch of words which somehow turned out to be good words in a language that neither he (nor most anyone else at the time) did not know? Especially personal names? You have said it should be easy. Give it a try."

I have not moved the goal posts. I have only identified the goal posts. If you will note, all of my example were really direct hits that have been identified as Egyptian and not just "near enough." The transliteration of the Egyptian scripts on the Rosetta Stone were not completed until 1822. It was many more years before Egyptologists were able to read the Egyptian hieroglyphics with any degree of certainty. The identification of the Egyptian names that appear in the Book of Mormon though, would logically have come after the Book of Mormon was published.

As to Pearl Curran, she did not start the Patience Worth persona until 1913. And she supposedly quit school after a nervous breakdown when she was thirteen, but at least one biographic sketch begs to differ on her educational background.

'Actually, Curran's education was probably far better than that of most of her contemporaries. She had been taught in various public and private schools, a Catholic academy, and several Protestant Sunday schools. Anecdotes suggest that she was a precocious learner during childhood. Furthermore, she was given fairly extensive tutoring and, during adolescence, began a prolonged period of musical training in both voice and piano. In the six years prior to her marriage at 24, she studied and worked in Chicago each winter, occasionally playing the piano in her medium-uncle's spiritualist church--despite her aversion to that "most unpleasant" atmosphere.'

She need not have tried to

As I noted, I was able to find each of you direct hits (although most of them were not direct but similar enough for one playing the close enough game) in publications accessible to the general public, not esoteric tomes. They also were without context in the languages but are a hodge-podge from several different languages (many of them also English). One of the other criteria I identified earlier was context.

I do not thank any rational philologist would adduce any significance to those names but at least one rational scholar (Albright) has noted and was puzzled by names in the Book of Mormon which he readily identified as Egyptian, and have not been found in any other language that I am aware of. To me you appear to be doing a lot of reductionism to try to make what you have offered equal to the goal posts I identified. The names I selected were unique to the Book of Mormon at the time it was published. I don't have to change anything to try to show a difference between the words in "The Sorry Tale" and the "Book of Mormon."

 

Just wanted to add, the Pearl Curran type of argument as to how KJV language or rather Early Modern English got into the Book of Mormon, i.e. automatic writing, has been discussed earlier, months, maybe a year or two ago on this board. My position might surprise you.

Glenn

Be careful, because now you're showing the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

Quote

The Texas sharpshooter fallacy often arises when a person has a large amount of data at their disposal, but only focuses on a small subset of that data. Some factor other than the one attributed may give all the elements in that subset some kind of common property (or pair of common properties, when arguing for correlation). If the person attempts to account for the likelihood of finding some subset in the large data with some common property by a factor other than its actual cause, then that person is likely committing a Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

In other words, it's like writing all the elements of the Book of Mormon on a wall, and then circling the ones you find convincing and saying "Wow, look at the bulls-eyes!  No other book has the same bulls-eyes, and no one else could have written something like this!"  Well, sure.  But you're ignoring everything else, including people and books that have done something similar, but it will never be similar enough.

It's easy to understand how this happens (it's obviously common and natural enough to have become a named fallacy, after all), but oddly the sharpshooter rarely sees what they've done.  So I'm just pointing this out for those who are interested in such things.  Otherwise, just let me say "Wow!  You're right!  All that stuff in the Book of Mormon is totally unexpected and the odds of it happening without divine intervention are so astronomical that Joseph's story is the only rational explanation."

Edited May 6, 2017 by cinepro

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Be careful, because now you're showing the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

The comparison is inapt. But I was wondering if you would ever get around to throwing it against the wall to see if it would stick. Here is the example that was used in the wikipedia article.:

'A Swedish study in 1992 tried to determine whether power lines caused some kind of poor health effects. The researchers surveyed everyone living within 300 meters of high-voltage power lines over a 25-year period and looked for statistically significant increases in rates of over 800 ailments. The study found that the incidence of childhood leukemia was four times higher among those who lived closest to the power lines, and it spurred calls to action by the Swedish government. The problem with the conclusion, however, was that the number of potential ailments, i.e. over 800, was so large that it created a high probability that at least one ailment would exhibit the appearance of a statistically significant difference by chance alone; ie. the multiple comparisons problem. Subsequent studies failed to show any links between power lines and childhood leukemia, neither in causation nor even in correlation.'

Now I asked you to provide an example of someone making up a word, in this case a personal name and later find the word is a direct hit in a language that was unknown or virtually unknown at the time. Especially if the language of the author and the target unknown language are very dissimilar. By the law of very large numbers it should have happened, if that law is applicable. The Texas sharpshooter fallacy does not apply. No one was looking for Egyptian names, etc. That just appeared in the text. If it could be demonstrated that someone else had made up some personal names and then those personal names were to be found authentic in another, unknown language at a later date, there would have been some validity to your argument. But your efforts produced names that were known and accessible to the general public, many of them in the Webster's 1913 dictionary. "The Sorry Tale" was not published until 1917.

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

It's easy to understand how this happens (it's obviously common and natural enough to have become a named fallacy, after all), but oddly the sharpshooter rarely sees what they've done.  So I'm just pointing this out for those who are interested in such things.  Otherwise, just let me say "Wow!  You're right!  All that stuff in the Book of Mormon is totally unexpected and the odds of it happening without divine intervention are so astronomical that Joseph's story is the only rational explanation."

Sarcasm duly noted. However, that has never been my point. My point has been that most alternative suggestions have not provided a rational explanation for all of the things that have been found in the Book of Mormon. I think that you have been making the wrong argument, but you came close with the Patience Worth/Pearl Curran idea.

I actually believe that there is an alternative explanation of how Egyptian names and Early Modern English could have been authored in a text by someone who did not known Egyptian at all and had no experience with Early Modern English. It also jibes pretty much with LDS theology. If you will look at the works that Pearl Curran and Geraldine Cummings produced, you may have an inkling of what I am thinking. Of course, you may have problems with that idea also.

Glenn

[cinepro]

On 5/6/2017 at 5:51 PM, Glenn101 said:

Now I asked you to provide an example of someone making up a word, in this case a personal name and later find the word is a direct hit in a language that was unknown or virtually unknown at the time. Especially if the language of the author and the target unknown language are very dissimilar. By the law of very large numbers it should have happened, if that law is applicable. The Texas sharpshooter fallacy does not apply. No one was looking for Egyptian names, etc. That just appeared in the text. If it could be demonstrated that someone else had made up some personal names and then those personal names were to be found authentic in another, unknown language at a later date, there would have been some validity to your argument. But your efforts produced names that were known and accessible to the general public, many of them in the Webster's 1913 dictionary. "The Sorry Tale" was not published until 1917.

Even the phrasing of the challenge is problematic.

Joseph Smith didn't "make up a word."  The Book of Mormon has hundreds of unique pronouns.  And just so we're all clear, they aren't "direct hits" to Egyptian names.

For example, one association is that the name "Paanchi" in the Book of Mormon is the same as the name "Piye", which was alliterated to "Piankh" at some point.  But neither of those are "Paanchi".  As FAIR explains it:

Quote

It should be noted that Nibley's information comes from 1948 (almost 70 years old), and new information has come forth since that time that provides some corrections to Nibley's information. The name "Kherihor" is in reality "Herihor," and "Paanchi" is in reality "Piankh."

https://www.fairmormon.org/evidences/Category:Paanchi

So to be clear, those aren't "direct hits."  They might be close, but remember what we've learned about what happens when "close" is good enough?  It exponentially increases the odds of finding a match.

Honestly, I'm not even sure Joseph Smith passes the Book of Mormon names challenge if finding a "direct hit in a language that was unknown or virtually unknown at the time" is the provision.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

So to be clear, those aren't "direct hits."  They might be close, but remember what we've learned about what happens when "close" is good enough?  It exponentially increases the odds of finding a match.

Honestly, I'm not even sure Joseph Smith passes the Book of Mormon names challenge if finding a "direct hit in a language that was unknown or virtually unknown at the time" is the provision.

Did you also read the section on rules for name building?

Paanchi may not be on the list of direct hits, although still recognized by other scholars as Egyptian. Pahoran is though, as well as Pacumeni among others.

But that is okay. Joseph could have done it via automatic writing anyway.

Glenn

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Did you also read the section on rules for name building?

Paanchi may not be on the list of direct hits, although still recognized by other scholars as Egyptian. Pahoran is though, as well as Pacumeni among others.

But that is okay. Joseph could have done it via automatic writing anyway.

Glenn

Still not "direct hits":

Quote

Pahoran (BM), a) great chief judge, b) son of the same.
Pa-her-an (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine, where his name has the “reformed” reading Pahura; in Egyptian as Pa-her-y it means “the Syrian” or Asiatic.

Pacumeni (BM), son of Pahoran.
Pakamen (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning “blind man”; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.

 

https://americantestament.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/authentic-egyptian-names-in-the-book-of-mormon/

Close, but again, once you allow for even a single letter to be different, the odds of finding a match go way up.

Edited May 8, 2017 by cinepro

[Glenn101]

18 hours ago, cinepro said:

Close, but again, once you allow for even a single letter to be different, the odds of finding a match go way up

Not in Semitic languages. But we are just battering each other with our opinions right now. I am no more expert than you so I'll just lay off this topic with the expectation that we still will be disagreeing.

After doing a bit more reading about Pearl Curran and Geraldine Cummings, I was actually surprised that you did not find some really good hits in context.

Glenn