LittleNipper Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) A Christian wishes the very best for everyone; however, the best is a place in heaven (an eternal good). Insisting that how one lives and not repenting is not how one gains entrance. An individual who is bend on living as he chooses and does not view sin as sin is a lost individual. I would never wish to be of an attitude that encourages one to wallow in sin as in anyway blessed by GOD. The Supreme Court is not Supreme in the eyes of GOD, and in viewing their decisions, they have only proven that they are indeed very much human and in need of salvation as well. And now Christians are being manipulated and forced to indirectly and directly support and supply homosexual couples with what they believe they need to be happy. I firmly believe that those that study the Bible as GOD's Word suspected/knew that this would be the result. Edited October 6, 2017 by LittleNipper
Guest Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 7 hours ago, california boy said: I am not being combative either. Yes there were other churches that gave money. But we are talking about what the Mormon church did. And do I need to point out that the Mormon church gave more than all of the other churches combined? The church believes that gay couples should not marry. When you take away their right to marry and make it legally impossible for them to exercise their right to marry, then YES you are forcing them to conform to your beliefs. Were gay couples forced to no longer marry or not? Could they legally marry after the church made their huge effort to outlaw gay marriage? Did they have a choice? NO. I am going to disagree with you on this point no matter how you phase it. The bottom line is that the church forced gay couples to not marry because after Prop 8, there was no longer the choice to marry given to them. So again two things, the Church is more to blame, because of the amount of money given? Also, I highlighted a word in your post...so now not the Church but me personally forced my belief on someone? I have not forced anyone to do anything, I have no such power, and if I did, it would violate one of the Church's most cherished belief. The issue of marriage is not a "Church doctrine", but a "scriptural one".
california boy Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: So again two things, the Church is more to blame, because of the amount of money given? Also, I highlighted a word in your post...so now not the Church but me personally forced my belief on someone? I have not forced anyone to do anything, I have no such power, and if I did, it would violate one of the Church's most cherished belief. The issue of marriage is not a "Church doctrine", but a "scriptural one". There is a big difference between just speaking out on an issue and providing over half of the money and 70% of the manpower to push a political agenda. So yes, the church is more to blame. I didn't mean to make it personal. It should. have read the church. By the very nature of scripture, it is a religious belief and what the church uses to help form doctrine.
Guest Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, california boy said: There is a big difference between just speaking out on an issue and providing over half of the money and 70% of the manpower to push a political agenda. So yes, the church is more to blame. I didn't mean to make it personal. It should. have read the church. By the very nature of scripture, it is a religious belief and what the church uses to help form doctrine. CA, don't worry about making it personal, I have developed a thick skin over my six decades. Besides it is a very emotional topic, so we often get carried away. It is a very heart wrenching issue, especially to the parents of those affected, as we stand helpless seeing how difficult their lives are. I love my daughter more than life itself, I look forward to every Sunday, when all my children and their spouses (this includes her spouse) and my grandchildren, who come to Sunday Supper. Just as I would give my life for her, I would also be willing to bare any punishment for any of my children after death. But, I do not need to die for the sins of any of my children, nor bare their punishment, because someone has already done so. I don't have all the answers, I live by faith, and not a perfect knowledge, thank heavens. If the Church is in error, then it will all be made right in the heavens, as Jesus Christ came to make all things right. 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 There are Christians that have no problem with homosexuality. I always thought we were a secular nation, that allows the individual citizen the right to believe anything they want. 1
carbon dioxide Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) On 10/5/2017 at 4:12 PM, california boy said: I consider the church's Prop 8 actions as an example of a church trying to force others to conform to their beliefs.. Just because the church doesn't believe in gay marriage doesn't mean they should work to take away the civil rights of gay couples away. It was wrong. This is nonsense. No Church was forcing anything. The VOTERS voted for Prop 8 and not the Church. All churches did was make the case to the voters but it was the individuals of the state of California that made the decision. Lets not pretend the LDS Church waved a magic wand or cast a priesthood spell and forced the people of California to pass Prop 8. Edited October 7, 2017 by carbon dioxide 3
carbon dioxide Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, california boy said: There is a big difference between just speaking out on an issue and providing over half of the money and 70% of the manpower to push a political agenda. So yes, the church is more to blame. Does not matter because money does not buy elections and voters make the decision on their own. You also seem to ignore the fact that more money was spent to defeat Prop 8 than to pass Prop 8. Are you suggesting the "Mormon dollar" is more powerful and influential than the dollars donated for celebs and corporations to defeat Prop 8? The fact is simply this. The better case was made against gay marriage than for it to pass Prop 8. The non-Mormons of California passed Prop 8. Just as the non-Mormons in dozens of other states voted against gay marriage. My criticism of the church on Prop 8 simply rests on the fact that is probably was not necessary. Given what happened in a earlier vote in California and what was going on in other states, Prop 8 was going to pass regardless. The Church did not need to waste its time on a done deal. Edited October 7, 2017 by carbon dioxide 1
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 On 10/5/2017 at 5:12 PM, california boy said: I consider the church's Prop 8 actions as an example of a church trying to force others to conform to their beliefs.. Just because the church doesn't believe in gay marriage doesn't mean they should work to take away the civil rights of gay couples away. It was wrong. No one was trying "to take away the civil rights of" anyone. Defending the historic and natural definition of marriage doesn't disturb "the civil rights" of anyone. 3
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 On 10/4/2017 at 5:05 PM, california boy said: What a church teaches? No. Churches should be free to teach any belief it wants. But when a church tries to force others outside their religion to live it's beliefs when those beliefs violates civil rights of others? Possibly. Tax exemption for churches is not a constitutional right. How about this? When a group tries to force others outside their group to live it's beliefs when those beliefs violate the historic norms of society AND THE LAWS OF GOD. 1
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, california boy said: There is a big difference between just speaking out on an issue and providing over half of the money and 70% of the manpower to push a political agenda. No, there isn't. No difference at all. Besides it passed with a majority vote. It was only the action of a MINORITY that over rode the voice of the people. And it continues to be the actions of a MINORITY that has forced it down our throats. Quote I didn't mean to make it personal. Yes, you did. You always make it personal. Edited October 7, 2017 by Vance 1
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: This is nonsense. No Church was forcing anything. The VOTERS voted for Prop 8 and not the Church. All churches did was make the case to the voters but it was the individuals of the state of California that made the decision. Lets not pretend the LDS Church waved a magic wand or cast a priesthood spell and forced the people of California to pass Prop 8. Never said anything about magic wands did I. I commented on the actions the church actually did. You know what the church did. I don't have to repeat it. 1
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Does not matter because money does not buy elections and voters make the decision on their own. You also seem to ignore the fact that more money was spent to defeat Prop 8 than to pass Prop 8. Are you suggesting the "Mormon dollar" is more powerful and influential than the dollars donated for celebs and corporations to defeat Prop 8? The fact is simply this. The better case was made against gay marriage than for it to pass Prop 8. The non-Mormons of California passed Prop 8. Just as the non-Mormons in dozens of other states voted against gay marriage. My criticism of the church on Prop 8 simply rests on the fact that is probably was not necessary. Given what happened in a earlier vote in California and what was going on in other states, Prop 8 was going to pass regardless. The Church did not need to waste its time on a done deal. Nonsense. Every election millions of dollars are spent. And you are trying to tell me money doesn't matter? lol. I will always hold the church accountable for the actions it took to take away the civil rights of gay couples. Period. Nothing more. To pretend that the church did not play a significant role in that action is a complete denial of what actually happened. Now the church has to live with the consequence of those actions whether for good or evil. The reputation the church has earned is entirely the reputation that they have earned. Don't blame me for pointing out the actions the church took. 1
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, Vance said: No one was trying "to take away the civil rights of" anyone. Defending the historic and natural definition of marriage doesn't disturb "the civil rights" of anyone. Wrong
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, Vance said: How about this? When a group tries to force others outside their group to live it's beliefs when those beliefs violate the historic norms of society AND THE LAWS OF GOD. Wrong. No one has forced you to marry someone of the same sex. And you are free to believe what every you think the laws of God are. 1
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, Vance said: No, there isn't. No difference at all. Besides it passed with a majority vote. It was only the action of a MINORITY that over rode the voice of the people. And it continues to be the actions of a MINORITY that has forced it down our throats. Yes, you did. You always make it personal. Never said Prop 8 didn't pass with a majority. I only held the church accountable in the role that they played in passing Prop 8. THAT is history. Pretending that the church did not pay for over 50% of the campaign and 70% of the manpower is false. 1
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, california boy said: Wrong I am exactly right. Marriage wasn't being withheld from you are anyone else. Besides, marriage is not a "civil right".
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, california boy said: Wrong. No one has forced you to marry someone of the same sex. You and your ilk have forced your same sex so called "marriage" on to our society against our will. We voted, you lost, but then some homosexual judge thwarted the will of the people. 5 hours ago, california boy said: And you are free to believe what every you think the laws of God are. What you or I believe about the laws of God doesn't not change them. If you don't believe in them and/or unwilling to follow them, then why do you want to be accepted into the inner workings of Mormondom? 1
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 5 hours ago, california boy said: Never said Prop 8 didn't pass with a majority. No, you didn't say anything about it. You simply ignored it, because it doesn't support your agenda. 5 hours ago, california boy said: I only held the church accountable in the role that they played in passing Prop 8. They simply exercised their rights as Americans. Something that you and your ilk are willing and wanting to take away. 5 hours ago, california boy said: THAT is history. Yes, it is. 5 hours ago, california boy said: Pretending that the church did not pay for over 50% of the campaign and 70% of the manpower is false. I am not pretending anything. What you are forgetting is that the membership of the church is a minority in California. They did NOT prevent any group from their own advocacy nor did they prevent anyone from voting. Your side simply LOST. And because of your hate, you can't live with it. You are not even satisfied with the minority in black robes thwarting the will of the people and by judicial fiat moving forward the devils agenda to destroy the family. 2
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Vance said: You and your ilk have forced your same sex so called "marriage" on to our society against our will. We voted, you lost, but then some homosexual judge thwarted the will of the people. What you or I believe about the laws of God doesn't not change them. If you don't believe in them and/or unwilling to follow them, then why do you want to be accepted into the inner workings of Mormondom? Well Vance, it is pretty obvious you don't know a thing about me nor what I believe, nor what I have posted on this discussion board. Breaking News: it was not one homosexual judge that ruled Prop 8 unconstitutional. The fact that you would make such a statement tells me that not only do you have no idea what I believe, but you have absolutely no grasp of the legal reasons why Prop 8 was overturned along with every other state law that denied gay couples their constitutional rights. When you are willing to have a civil discussion about this issue and stop making assumptions about who I am and what I believe, then let me know. 1
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 4 hours ago, california boy said: Well Vance, it is pretty obvious you don't know a thing about me nor what I believe, nor what I have posted on this discussion board. I do know the distortions you are attempting to foist upon us here. Quote Breaking News: it was not one homosexual judge that ruled Prop 8 unconstitutional. Judge Vaughn Walker The San Francisco Chronicle said the judge being gay is "the biggest open secret" in a column, although Walker himself hasn't addressed the speculation about his sexual orientation. Walker told reporters that he is gay and has been in a relationship with a male doctor for about ten years.[8] He was the first known gay person to serve as a United States federal judge,[9] though he did not publicly confirm his sexual orientation until after retiring from the federal bench.[10] Quote The fact that you would make such a statement tells me that not only do you have no idea what I believe, but you have absolutely no grasp of the legal reasons why Prop 8 was overturned along with every other state law that denied gay couples their constitutional rights. The fact that you would make such a statement tells me that you have no grasp of history. Quote When you are willing to have a civil discussion about this issue and stop making assumptions about who I am and what I believe, then let me know. When you are willing to acknowledge the truth and stop spewing lies, then let me know.Do not accuse others of lying. 1
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) Oh, the tolerance of the gay's. “I’m gay. You have to leave,” I would post a link to the facebook video but it has some VERY OFFENSIVE language by gay Ben Borgman. The old "liberty for me but not for thee". Edited to add link to story. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/6/christian-activists-booted-from-seattle-coffee-sho/ Edited October 7, 2017 by Vance 1
ALarson Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Vance said: Your side simply LOST. Really? SSM is now legal. How is that loosing? 1
california boy Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Vance said: I do know the distortions you are attempting to foist upon us here. Judge Vaughn Walker The San Francisco Chronicle said the judge being gay is "the biggest open secret" in a column, although Walker himself hasn't addressed the speculation about his sexual orientation. Walker told reporters that he is gay and has been in a relationship with a male doctor for about ten years.[8] He was the first known gay person to serve as a United States federal judge,[9] though he did not publicly confirm his sexual orientation until after retiring from the federal bench.[10] The fact that you would make such a statement tells me that you have no grasp of history. When you are willing to acknowledge the truth and stop spewing lies, then let me know. If judge Walker was the ONLY judge to rule on gay marriage then you might have a point. But this issue was ruled on by Federal and District judges across the country in numerous states including by a Mormon judge in Utah as well as the United States Supreme Court. All but one judge ruled that gay couples have the constitutional right to marry just like everyone else. I don't know what history you think I don't have a grasp on, but clearly the facts speak for themselves. 2
Vance Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 1 hour ago, ALarson said: Really? SSM is now legal. How is that loosing? Yes, they lost the vote. Your snide remark not withstanding.
Gray Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Vance said: Oh, the tolerance of the gay's. “I’m gay. You have to leave,” I would post a link to the facebook video but it has some VERY OFFENSIVE language by gay Ben Borgman. The old "liberty for me but not for thee". Edited to add link to story. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/6/christian-activists-booted-from-seattle-coffee-sho/ So I guess now conservatives are going to have to decide if this kind of behavior is acceptable. If it's acceptable for fundamentalist cake bakers, it's acceptable for gay coffee shop owners. 1
Recommended Posts