Ancient records, characters, and transmission into modern languages

[rongo]

I went to the Heard Museum in Phoenix with my wife for a college class of hers. It is a museum of American Indian culture and history, and it was fascinating. In the section for  the Tohono o'odham (Pima/Papago/Maricopa Indians --- our city is sandwiched between two reservations from this people), there was a mnemonic device stick made from a saguaro rib used as a personal diary in modern times (1860s). The entire stick covered two years' worth of content, and a translation accompanied it --- in paragraph form. Each glyph or pictogram yielded a small paragraph of content.

I found this very interesting in light of critical ridicule of the notion that a character could yield a large amount of English text (as in the KEP and the EAG). I'm not a fan (at all) of the mnemonic device theory for the BoA, but the dismissal out of hand that such a thing is possible is problematic. We have examples of that very thing (such as the diary sticks).  This may have been how reformed Egyptian worked: it was a highly specialized written language devised for the transmission of the Book of Mormon record --- not a general system in wide use. The same may be true with the Soter family records in the BoA scrolls.

Sorry the pictures are blurry! We don't have a good camera.

ETA: This is why divine inspiration and translation through the Holy Ghost is key, and it is precisely what modern scholarship can't address. If it is possible through revelation to restore the thought of the writer --- even if the actual writing doesn't denote this to modern readers/scholars --- then the physical means don't really matter. This is the actual question, and it's a question that can only be decided individually, case-by-case, through the subjective spiritual tests. 

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by rongo

[Benjamin Seeker]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

This may have been how reformed Egyptian worked

Cool post. An indication of how JS believed reformed Egyptian functioned is found in this document copied down in 1835 by Oliver Cowdery at the school of the prophets while JS was instructing: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-2-document-2-characters-copied-by-oliver-cowdery-circa-1835-1836/1#

 It appears that each noun is represented by a character. I realize this is at odds with David Whitmer's account of the Book of Mormon translation and the understanding of Egyptian laid out in the GAEL. However, this is the only direct translation of reformed Egyptian I am aware of that JS offered. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Benjamin Seeker

[rongo]

I don't thing that David Whitmer really knew anything about the translation process. His statements that Joseph read off a parchment or words that appeared in the seer stone represent his assumption about how it worked, but I don't think he knew firsthand, and i don't think Joseph told him that. 

As for the Kirtland Egyptian paper, I think they represented people trying to "study things out in their mind," without any input or guidance by Joseph. The projections are soon abandoned, and largely consist of matching verses of the BoA with characters/glyphs. I don't think they tell us much of anything about the method or the sources.

[theplains]

On 02/12/2016 at 3:08 PM, rongo said:

ETA: This is why divine inspiration and translation through the Holy Ghost is key, and it is precisely what modern scholarship can't address. If it is possible through revelation to restore the thought of the writer --- even if the actual writing doesn't denote this to modern readers/scholars --- then the physical means don't really matter. This is the actual question, and it's a question that can only be decided individually, case-by-case, through the subjective spiritual tests. 

Unfortunately, the current or past LDS President is not able to translate it.

Jim

[rongo]

How do you know that? 

Doesn't translate/hasn't translated ≠ can't translate. 

I know you mock this belief, but I (and many other Mormons) really believe that the "prophet, seer, and revelator" has the potential to translate, if God wills it and commands it. That God hasn't doesn't mean that it isn't possible or that he/they can't.

[Woody]

On 12/2/2016 at 3:02 PM, rongo said:

I don't thing that David Whitmer really knew anything about the translation process. His statements that Joseph read off a parchment or words that appeared in the seer stone represent his assumption about how it worked, but I don't think he knew firsthand, and i don't think Joseph told him that.

 

It's seems clear to me that David Whitmer was describing what Joseph told him he saw in the Urim & Thummim. However, the disconnect comes when we assume this was how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon.

Joseph TOLD us how he translated; it's in DC 9. But studying it out in your mind gets you absolutely nowhere launching into a totally unknown language.

I think he asked in prayer what it meant, then he looked in the U&T and the angel wrote something out for him - the first symbol and the English equivalent - and held it in his view. Repeat for the 2nd symbol, & the third... but he has to convert the stream of concepts/ideas into English sentences, which is why the early text reads as it does. He has to figure out what's intended. Then he gets a confirmation that this is right. After a couple of pages he's finding many symbols he's learned and doesn't need the 'dictionary lookup' as much.

David said the plates weren't even in the room when Joseph dictated. Well, what was he dictating when the plates weren't in the room, the Book of Mormon translation or revelations he received? Whitmer was a bitter old man when he wrote this and there are a couple of other similar bogons in the same essay [Address to All Believers]. I think he had some scruples against outright lying but he could mix things up a little and let the audience get the wrong impression so as to discredit Joseph. Read it carefully, it's pretty obvious.

Can you encode whole paragraphs into one small symbol? Sure you can. You can encode the entire Library of Congress, the entire Internet, in one symbol - ﬗ - there, that looks like a good symbol for it.