Eek! Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, halconero said: I think where the ordinances come into play as they pertain to knowledge is their connection to mysteries. The Mysteries of Heaven have always been associated with the rites, rituals, vows, covenants, and ceremonies of the Kingdom, having their root in the New Testament Greek word for "initiated doctrines." We know that Brigham Young taught that the endowment is what Jesus was talking about when he said that these were the mysteries of godliness, and the means whereby we come to know (to know personally, not just to know of) God the Father and Jesus, and thereby have eternal life. Ordinances are how knowledge/mysteries are both communicated and solemnized by covenant. I agree with JLHPROF in that without the keys in their proper order, with the majority of the Twelve and the Records of the Church as Joseph taught, we are lost. I thank you and JLHPROF for your very well thought-out and well-written posts on this topic. Yes I did learn “mysteries” that I would not otherwise have known from the endowment ceremony, so your point about the connection between temple ordinances and knowledge is a very good one. I have also learned “mysteries” from experiences that had zero connection with the LDS church. The basic Christian paradigm for salvation is justice vs. mercy, wherein all deserve condemnation but some qualify for mercy. The Mormons include the credentials requirement taught in the endowment ceremony, so some qualify for exaltation by having obtained the credentials and some do not. Yes, I understand that there are other conditions attached. My own paradigm is based more on the soul's natural affinity than on technicalities, but I won't bore you with the details unless someone wants me to. Or you can read a bunch of near-death experiences and probably get the picture. Now it doesn't make sense to me that God would go to so much trouble to set up the priesthood and temple ceremony if they didn't matter. I think both are very powerful teachers and magnificent ways of raising people's spirits to higher levels. And I think they may well be mirroring truths already in place before we came here (consider that we use the term “eternal marriage” for something that has a beginning in time; that term would be incorrect unless the earthly ceremony was just a confirmation of a relationship that already existed). And they may well be absolutely vital, just as the Church teaches. If God is good, and God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, then all will get a fair shot at any ordinances that matter. If Christ's work and glory are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, and if He will not fail, then He has already figured out ways to make sure that nobody gets cheated on a technicality. Therefore imo if the Church "loses it", nobody is actually "lost". And if we really are supposed to become like Jesus, then THAT is the task at hand for each of us, seems to me. All imo of course. Edited August 18, 2016 by Eek! 2
mfbukowski Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 8 hours ago, halconero said: "Suggesting" is probably a bit strong. Just not as opposed as some authorities (I'm sure we can think of a few): "We don't speculate on that a lot. Brigham Young said if you went to Heaven and saw God it would be Adam and Eve. I don't know what he meant by that." Pointing to a grim-faced portrait of the Lion of the Lord, as Young was called, he (Gordon B. Hinckley) said, "There he is, right there. I'm not going to worry about what he said about those things." - Interview with the New Yorker There's also a lot of ways to take that more figuratively that Adam and Eve are archetypal Humans, "male and female created He them...." 1
mfbukowski Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 5 hours ago, Eek! said: If God is good, and God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, then all will get a fair shot at any ordinances that matter. And if he is not, we are all....... well, let's just say "messed up".... anyway! 1
Eek! Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And if he is not, we are all....... well, let's just say "messed up".... anyway! Indeed, we'd be up the proverbial creek sans paddle. Thank you for being one of my teachers.. Edited August 19, 2016 by Eek!
halconero Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: There's also a lot of ways to take that more figuratively that Adam and Eve are archetypal Humans, "male and female created He them...." True, and I have my own thoughts on the matter. Even so, given the amount Brigham spoke and wrote about the matter we have a pretty good idea at least of what he personally meant regarding the idea. My bet is that President Hinckley here and in other instances (the Lorenzo Snow quote) was purposefully refraining to elaborate so as not to cast pearls before swine, or cause church members to have a stumbling block. I don't have a problem with that at all. If he's under the command of God to keep mum, then mum he should keep. Edit: Grammar. Probably shouldn't do this first thing in the morning. Edited August 19, 2016 by halconero 3
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