The Godhead Outlined in Alma 36

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

You didn't answer my first question. 

If I were to find similar 19th language and ideas as Alma 36, would it change your perspectives?

No!

[Bobbieaware]

On June 21, 2016 at 1:01 PM, consiglieri said:

The problem is that the Bible has similar stories (as in Matthew 3), but that hasn't kept Christians from believing the Trinity for hundreds of years.

In other words, the presence of Alma 36 does not prove the author did not hold a Trinitarian view of the Godhead.

On the other side of the equation, the Book of Mormon has many more Trinitarian-type formulaic statements than the Bible.  These include statements identifying Jesus as "the Eternal God" (as on the Title Page), and other statements that God, the Son and the Holy Ghost are "one God."  These include 2 Nephi 31:21: "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end."

All things considered, it seems that the Book of Mormon is more Trinitarian than the Bible in its presentation of the Godhead.

I guess you missed the point of this thread: You see, a God the Father who possesses a male human body, and a materiality that enables him to be seated upon a throne, is totally anathema to the immaterial, 'totally other' being of the Trinitarian creeds. While the three personages of the LDS Godhead iare unified in purpose and Spirit, they are all material beings. Meanwhile, the God of the Trinity is without body parts and passions. In LDS theology, God doesn't have to be an immaterial, asexual being in order for the Godhead to exist and be unified. If God the Father possesses a male human body, the traditional Trinity goes out the window.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[canard78]

5 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I guess you missed the point of this thread: You see, a God the Father who possesses a male human body, and a materiality that enables him to be seated upon a throne, is totally anathema to the immaterial, 'totally other' being of the Trinitarian creeds. While the three personages of the LDS Godhead iare unified in purpose and Spirit, they are all material beings. Meanwhile, the God of the Trinity is without body parts and passions. In LDS theology, God doesn't have to be an immaterial, asexual being in order for the Godhead to exist and be unified. If God the Father possesses a male human body, the traditional Trinity goes out the window.

But the verses quoted in the opening post do not establish those things. It does not establish that God the Father has a male human body. It does not establish that he has a materiality to sit on a material throne.

Besides, are you aware that Alma is describing a vision? It was not described as a physical visit to heaven. A vision doesn't have to be a literal experience. What about the visions Daniel interpreted? Literal or figurative?

How about Peter's vision? Do you think there were actual animals floating through Jerusalem on a blanket? Or was it just an image he saw to teach him a principle. Alternatively perhaps we should learn that pigs actually do fly?

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

But the verses quoted in the opening post do not establish those things. It does not establish that God the Father has a male human body. It does not establish that he has a materiality to sit on a material throne.

Besides, are you aware that Alma is describing a vision? It was not described as a physical visit to heaven. A vision doesn't have to be a literal experience. What about the visions Daniel interpreted? Literal or figurative?

How about Peter's vision? Do you think there were actual animals floating through Jerusalem on a blanket? Or was it just an image he saw to teach him a principle. Alternatively perhaps we should learn that pigs actually do fly?

So am I correct in assuming you're one of those people who "spiritualizes away" everything? Believing, for instance, that even Joseph Smith's first vision wasn't a real experience with real beings? And even though it says the MALE personage who is SITTING on the throne is actually very God, and even though he is being worshiped as very God by great concourses of angels who surround the throne and recognize HIM as their God, and even though the prophet Joseph Smith says even Spirit is form of matter, yet in spite of all these things Alma's experience was just imaginary. nothing more than a world of dreams and make believe. Please forgive me if I'm one of those Latter-day Saints who"s unsophisticated enough to believe God is very real.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[canard78]

31 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

So am I correct in assuming you're one of those people who "spiritualizes away" everything? Believing, for instance, that even Joseph Smith's first vision wasn't a real experience with real beings? And even though it says the MALE personage who is SITTING on the throne is actually very God, and even though he is being worshiped as very God by great concourses of angels who surround the throne and recognize HIM as their God, and even though the prophet Joseph Smith says even Spirit is form of matter, yet in spite of all these things Alma's experience was just imaginary. nothing more than a world of dreams and make believe. Please forgive me if I'm one of those Latter-day Saints who"s unsophisticated enough to believe God is very real.

Was Peter's vision "imaginary?"

Did he see actual living beasts floating on a blanket? What heard or stable were they from?

Or were they instead an image that he saw or was shown?

[Bobbieaware]

49 minutes ago, canard78 said:

Was Peter's vision "imaginary?"

Did he see actual living beasts floating on a blanket? What heard or stable were they from?

Or were they instead an image that he saw or was shown?

Throughout the scriptures, God uses both symbolic visions and visions that reveal objective spiritual realities. Depending on the circumstances he uses both types of these visions to serve his ends. And just because at some point he uses one type of these visions doesn't mean he won't ever have need to utilize the other.

Now the Latter-day Saints are taught God the Father is a perfect man (knowing this important fact makes it childishly easy to determine God the Father is a male human being) and that he looks like us, or, more correctly, that we look like him. When in their visions both Lehi and Alma see God the Fatheras a male human being sitting on a throne, as he"s being acknowledged as God numberless concourses of angels, we can have every reasonable expectation that in these two visions both Lehi and Alma actually did see God. Do you believe Joseph Smith saw God the Father in his first vision, or do you believe he only saw a symbolic human representation of a God that is actually immaterial, has no gender, and is without body parts and passion? 

The only way I can see your argument holding any water is if God is not in reality a glorified male human being. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[snowflake]

21 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Throughout the scriptures, God uses both symbolic visions and visions that reveal objective spiritual realities. Depending on the circumstances he uses both types of these visions to serve his ends. And just because at some point he uses one type of these visions doesn't mean he won't ever have need to utilize the other.

Now the Latter-day Saints are taught God the Father is a perfect man (knowing this important fact makes it childishly easy to determine God the Father is a male human being) and that he looks like us, or, more correctly, that we look like him. When in their visions both Lehi and Alma see God the Fatheras a male human being sitting on a throne, as he"s being acknowledged as God numberless concourses of angels, we can have every reasonable expectation that in these two visions both Lehi and Alma actually did see God. Do you believe Joseph Smith saw God the Father in his first vision, or do you believe he only saw a symbolic human representation of a God that is actually immaterial, has no gender, and is without body parts and passion? 

The only way I can see your argument holding any water is if God is not in reality a glorified male human being. 

If you read Ezekiel chapter 1 he describes the heavens being opened and seeing visions of God.  His description of God is nothing like that of Lehi or Alma, he describes beasts with 4 faces and wings and bronze feet and...... well.......it to much to describe.  The LDS to me seem to force this issue that God can be described, and his description is of a man. Ezekiel seems to do his best describing God but clearly he is beyond description. How do you describe something so big, powerful, magnificent, loving.  Cleary God is beyond description to human minds. 

Ezekiel 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

² In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

³ The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.

⁴ And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

⁵ Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

⁶ And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

⁷ And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

⁸ And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

⁹ Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

¹⁰ As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

¹¹ Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

¹² And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

¹³ As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

¹⁴ And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

¹⁵ Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

¹⁶ The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

¹⁷ When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

¹⁸ As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

¹⁹ And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

²⁰ Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

²¹ When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

²² And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

²³ And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

²⁴ And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

²⁵ And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

²⁶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

²⁷ And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

²⁸ As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, snowflake said:

If you read Ezekiel chapter 1 he describes the heavens being opened and seeing visions of God.  His description of God is nothing like that of Lehi or Alma, he describes beasts with 4 faces and wings and bronze feet and...... well.......it to much to describe.  The LDS to me seem to force this issue that God can be described, and his description is of a man. Ezekiel seems to do his best describing God but clearly he is beyond description. How do you describe something so big, powerful, magnificent, loving.  Cleary God is beyond description to human minds. 

Ezekiel 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

² In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

³ The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.

⁴ And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

⁵ Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

⁶ And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

⁷ And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

⁸ And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

⁹ Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

¹⁰ As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

¹¹ Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

¹² And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

¹³ As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

¹⁴ And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

¹⁵ Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

¹⁶ The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

¹⁷ When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

¹⁸ As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

¹⁹ And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

²⁰ Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

²¹ When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

²² And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

²³ And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

²⁴ And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

²⁵ And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

²⁶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

²⁷ And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

²⁸ As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

I'm astonished you would quote Ezekiel 1 and yet somehow miss the perfectly obvious. You see, until verse 26 there is no description of God but only a description of the creatures Ezekiel saw that SURROUND the throne of God. But beginning at verse 26 we see the prophet's actual description of the being of God himself. And guess what? Yes that's right, Ezekiel also describes God as being a glorious MAN! See for yourself...

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a THRONE (yes, the same kind of throne both Lehi and Alma saw), as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a MAN above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of HIS LOINS (is not Ezekiel describing a male human being?)  even upward, and from the appearance of HIS LOINS (sure doesn't sound like a God without body parts and passions to me) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake. (Ezekiel 1)

So thanks to you we now have three witnesses (among many others) who have testified that God is a glorified man (just like the God Jesus Christ) who sits upon a throne.

•  

Edited June 25, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[snowflake]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 6:19 PM, Bobbieaware said:

I'm astonished you would quote Ezekiel 1 and yet somehow miss the perfectly obvious. You see, until verse 26 there is no description of God but only a description of the creatures Ezekiel saw that SURROUND the throne of God. But beginning at verse 26 we see the prophet's actual description of the being of God himself. And guess what? Yes that's right, Ezekiel also describes God as being a glorious MAN! See for yourself...

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a THRONE (yes, the same kind of throne both Lehi and Alma saw), as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a MAN above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of HIS LOINS (is not Ezekiel describing a male human being?)  even upward, and from the appearance of HIS LOINS (sure doesn't sound like a God without body parts and passions to me) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake. (Ezekiel 1)

So thanks to you we now have three witnesses (among many others) who have testified that God is a glorified man (just like the God Jesus Christ) who sits upon a throne.

•  

You are incorrect in saying that there is no description of God until verse 26,  the entire chapter is a description of the Glory of the Lord. Look for yourself! You are cherry picking one line in verse 26 out of the entire chapter. Please read the entire chapter.  Verse one states

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Are we to disregard all the other descriptions in the chapter  and focus solely the last half of verse 26?  If you look at verse one it states I saw visions of God. Ezekiel goes on with this incredible description for an entire chapter and finishes the description with a recap saying

²⁸ As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

The entire chapter is a description of the glory of the Lord. He is clearly indescribable, I think Ezekiel is doing his best to describe the "glory of the Lord". 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

You are incorrect in saying that there is no description of God until verse 26,  the entire chapter is a description of the Glory of the Lord. Look for yourself! You are cherry picking one line in verse 26 out of the entire chapter. Please read the entire chapter.  Verse one states

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Are we to disregard all the other descriptions in the chapter  and focus solely the last half of verse 26?  If you look at verse one it states I saw visions of God. Ezekiel goes on with this incredible description for an entire chapter and finishes the description with a recap saying

²⁸ As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

The entire chapter is a description of the glory of the Lord. He is clearly indescribable, I think Ezekiel is doing his best to describe the "glory of the Lord". 

 

Isaiah 6 makes it clear that the creatures and the sights and sounds that surrounded the throne of God are not God himself but separate beings and manifestations who REFLECT his glory. In Isaiah's vision, beings similar to the ones in Ezekiel's vision plainly testify that the male personage who was sitting upon the throne is God, and they unambiguously declare that they WORSHIP and HONOR HIM -- not themselves. The are clearly worshipping the anthropomorphic male personage who is seated on the THRONE OF ETERNAL POWER. (Please note that the creatures are not seated on the throne of power but only the male personage is seated thereon. This imagery would not have escaped the ancients who were contemporary with Isaiah's writing, for only the king himself was allowed to be seated on the throne.)

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I SAW ALSO THE LORD SITTING UPON A THRONE, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (Please note that it is the LORD who is seated on the throne of eternal power, not the seraphim spoken of in the verses below)

 2 Above it (the throne of eternal power) stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (It is obvious that the seraphim are separate beings from the male personage seated on the throne)

 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, IS the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. (please note that the seraphim are worshipping the Lord who is seated on the throne and saying that HE is holy, not that they are also to be worshiped because they are equal to the LORD in power and authority)

 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

 5 ¶Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: FOR MINE EYES HAVE SEEN THE KING (kings sit on thrones) the Lord of hosts. (It is obvious Isaiah is speaking here of the KING who is seated on the throne and not of the seraphim who are worshipping and praising the God of the throne). (Isaiah 6)

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[snowflake]

Point taken, there are several verses that speak of God "sitting on a throne" and "the appearance and likeness of a man".  I can understand why you would think God is an "exalted man".  However we must take scripture in total, all of scripture is God breathed so It is important that we examine it all to find the truth.  Several verses state that God is not a man. Is this a contradiction or an error in scripture?

¹⁹ God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23.

Jesus taught that God is spirit in John 4

²³ But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

²⁴ God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Anthropomorphisms are used throughout the Bible but these do not mean God has a Body. 

¹⁵ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1)

Philosophically, God must be spirit in order to be omnipresent.  He has to be outside time, and space.  If he is stuck in a body, this greatly diminishes his power. 

I understand why you could believe that God has a body (some of Joseph's first vision accounts describe God with a body as well).

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Point taken, there are several verses that speak of God "sitting on a throne" and "the appearance and likeness of a man".  I can understand why you would think God is an "exalted man".  However we must take scripture in total, all of scripture is God breathed so It is important that we examine it all to find the truth.  Several verses state that God is not a man. Is this a contradiction or an error in scripture?

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23.

Jesus taught that God is spirit in John 4

²³ But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

²⁴ God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Anthropomorphisms are used throughout the Bible but these do not mean God has a Body. 

¹⁵ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1)

Philosophically, God must be spirit in order to be omnipresent.  He has to be outside time, and space.  If he is stuck in a body, this greatly diminishes his power. 

I understand why you could believe that God has a body (some of Joseph's first vision accounts describe God with a body as well).

 

If you are willing, let's take our dialogue one specific point at a time, as if in conversation.

In consideration of the fact that Jesus Christ is a man ("... one mediator between God and men, the MAN Jesus Christ." 1Timothy 2:5) what does the following verse of scripture (quoted by you above) say -- or not say -- about the character and nature of the man Jesus Christ?

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

 

If you are willing, let's take our dialogue one specific point at a time, as if in conversation.

In consideration of the fact that Jesus Christ is a man ("... one mediator between God and men, the MAN Jesus Christ." 1Timothy 2:5) what does the following verse of scripture (quoted by you above) say -- or not say -- about the character and nature of the man Jesus Christ?

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23.

God does not lie or does he repent of sins. Remember this was written before the word became flesh....and dwelt among us.  I read it as saying that God is not at all like people, he can not lie and does not have the need to repent of sins like us. 

[Bobbieaware]

17 minutes ago, snowflake said:

God does not lie or does he repent of sins. Remember this was written before the word became flesh....and dwelt among us.  I read it as saying that God is not at all like people, he can not lie and does not have the need to repent of sins like us. 

We are told that Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, today, and forever," so whether or not the Lord was made flesh after the time of Moses' pronouncement in Numbers 23:19 should make no difference.

I will rephrase: In light of the verse you quoted from Numbers 23, why did Christ become a man when the prophet Moses said God is not a man? In other words, why would God allow himself to become a man when he had his prophet teach the people that God is not a man? It seems to me that if you are correct Moses should have said "God is not a fallen man but will one day become a holy man of flesh, bone and blood." 

And if God did become a man, in the person of Jesus Christ, why did Christ not ever lie or have to repent because of personal sin if it is hardwired into the very nature of man to lie and commit sin?