Robert F. Smith Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 12 hours ago, canard78 said: Robert, if you want meaningful dialogue with people of different views to you, you really need to learn to not be so patronising. Maybe it's just a foible of your generation. In what way am I being intolerant? My first post on this thread was exactly the opposite. I'd said that the quote about something that could only be speculation was useful in helping me see how he would use strong and absolute language for something that could only be speculation. If you want to be considered as fair minded and tolerant, then perhaps calling other people's faith a "fairy faith" would be inadvisable. You're beginning to sound like Russell. You probably don't mean Bertrand Russell, which would be a compliment. Nothing in the JFS quote uses the language of speculation. Despite that we both conclude he is probably speculating. Probably... in fact we can only speculate that he was! Correct, although not every thing he says is speculation. What I also asked was whether he was aware he was speculating but had tendency to use absolute language for various possible reasons, or whether he was so certain in his conclusions that he didn't feel a need to use speculative language. Of course he was not self-aware. Out if interest, do you consider the following absolute statements to be ones we should take literally or as speculation. Given they were taught only two years ago, should those with "fairy faith" accept them or reject the teachings? To bring it back to the OP, JFS here states, "emphatically," that no ordinance or ceremony performed without priesthood authority is recognised by the Lord and that the united voice of the brethren can never send counsel that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord. Is this actually just more speculation in strong language? Are our prophets actually speculating about the keys and authority they hold? Are they speculating about the authority held by people in the scriptures like Alma? Are they speculating they speak the word of the Lord? I'd willingly agree with the proposal that the entire quote that follows is nothing more than wishful speculation stated in "plain" and "emphatic" language. When I sat through this lesson two years ago, I don't remember any of the quorum members discussing it that way. Maybe those doctors, professors, builders, high school teachers and retirees all just had "fairy faith" as well though. I have no problem with that long quote you provided from that past lesson. His claims are all true, in general, but not as absolutes. He ignores the exceptions, if he is even aware of them. He is not required to abide by your or my demands of which sort of language he should use, in accord with our individual tastes & preferences. Live and let live, canard. Accept him as he was. You had no reason to call down hell fire upon him anyhow. Tolerance, canard. All of us need to exercise more of it. Why are you even raising these questions? Are they that important? Those who believe in human infallibility are certainly exercising a kind of "fairy faith." One hopes that they overcome that first naivete, at least by young adulthood. Otherwise their lives will be fraught with unmet expectations, and they will certainly find someone to blame for that. It should not need to be said that some even mistake their fairy faith for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1
canard78 Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: I have no problem with that long quote you provided from that past lesson. His claims are all true, in general, but not as absolutes. He ignores the exceptions, if he is even aware of them. He is not required to abide by your or my demands of which sort of language he should use, in accord with our individual tastes & preferences. Live and let live, canard. Accept him as he was. You had no reason to call down hell fire upon him anyhow. Tolerance, canard. All of us need to exercise more of it. Why are you even raising these questions? Are they that important? Those who believe in human infallibility are certainly exercising a kind of "fairy faith." One hopes that they overcome that first naivete, at least by young adulthood. Otherwise their lives will be fraught with unmet expectations, and they will certainly find someone to blame for that. It should not need to be said that some even mistake their fairy faith for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You both and Russel have a natural gift for pummelling straw men. I can only assume it makes you feel good about yourself. Edited May 15, 2016 by canard78
Robert F. Smith Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 7 hours ago, canard78 said: You both and Russel have a natural gift for pummelling straw men. I can only assume it makes you feel good about yourself. Now I know that you aren't citing Bertrand Russell. Anyhow, canard, why should you worry if I am only pummeling straw men for my own gratification? You remain untouched, don't you? 1
HairBear Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 Another reason for baptism is to become a member of the Church. As Alma is basically organising a church between himself and the group of people who went with him, I've always understood this passage as Alma baptising himself as an acceptance of membership into the Lord's Church. Just a thought I had. 2
CV75 Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 On 5/13/2016 at 7:21 PM, Doctrine 612 said: What is alma doing here. I learned a few years ago about baptism for healing and renewing covenants in the temple do you think this is the same thing. Mosiah 18:14-15 14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit. 15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water. Alma was a priest consecrated by Noah, who followed the pattern of his father Zeniff, who, as a descendant of the Nephites (Mosiah 9:1), was taught “in all the language of the Nephites” which would have included the priesthood functions and ordinances, which included baptism (2 Nephi 31:12). Baptism has a number of applications, but I don’t see Mosiah 18:14-15 as a reference to healing. I think it a rather nice gesture that Alma was buried in the water along with Helam as one of the first baptized persons.
consiglieri Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 4 hours ago, HairBear said: Another reason for baptism is to become a member of the Church. As Alma is basically organising a church between himself and the group of people who went with him, I've always understood this passage as Alma baptising himself as an acceptance of membership into the Lord's Church. Just a thought I had. Alma's baptizing of himself is interesting in that it is a unique BOM instance of "auto-baptism." The only other instance of auto-baptism I am aware of is Paul's female disciple, Thecla. Let me see if I can find a reference. Here we go! Quote Then they send in many wild beasts, she standing and stretching forth her hands, and praying. And when she had finished her prayer, she turned and saw a ditch full of water, and said: Now it is time to wash myself. And she threw herself in, saying: In the name of Jesus Christ I am baptized on my last day. And the women seeing, and the multitude, wept, saying: Do not throw thyself into the water; so that also the governor shed tears, because the seals were going to devour such beauty. She then threw herself in in the name of Jesus Christ; but the seals having seen the glare of the fire of lightning, floated about dead. And there was round her, as she was naked, a cloud of fire; so that neither could the wild beasts touch her, nor could she be seen naked. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vii.xxvi.html
Robert F. Smith Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 49 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Alma's baptizing of himself is interesting in that it is a unique BOM instance of "auto-baptism." The only other instance of auto-baptism I am aware of is Paul's female disciple, Thecla. Let me see if I can find a reference. Here we go! http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vii.xxvi.html Yes, and to this day, Jewish baptism (mikveh) is always done naked (with only witnesses of the same gender) and is auto-baptism. This early apocryphal source also shares the points of virginity and threatened death by fire with some Abraham accounts.
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