RevTestament Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 1 hour ago, JAHS said: How do you figure this? What is the date? 3 Nephi 2:6-8 6 And six hundred and nine years had passed away since Lehi left Jerusalem. 7 And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. 8 Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away. 3 Nephi 8:5 And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land. *** 20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness; 21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all; 22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land. 23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them. Again, in the Hebrew calendar, the first month is equivalent to our April, hence this was the time of His death. The years started over with the birth of Christ, and were no longer reckoned according to the Mosaic law.
RevTestament Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Depends on which calendar you are using, civil or religious, Northern Kingdom or Kingdom of Judah. Judaism traditionally counts Tishri as the seventh month (Sept-Oct), even though it begins with New Year's Day and memorializes the Day of Creation -- each new year since is numbered from that date. At the same time, I erred in my reply to Peter Pear. Thanks for the heads up. I kinda accidentally repped you - I meant just to hit the quote button. The BoM plainly does not support a birth year of 5 BC, since 600 years had passed away from the time of Lehi's leaving Jerusalem until the year of the sign of His birth, and to put the chronology earlier than 600 BC doesn't work in the Biblical chronology. Although the lunar calendar is shorter than a solar year, it is corrected to the solar year meaning that the Hebrew year is essentially the same as our Roman years on average. However, it does seem to me that His birth might be in the fall if he began his ministry on his birthday. His ministry was probably 3.5 years or 42 months. What else may lead you to believe He was born in Tishri?
Robert F. Smith Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: I kinda accidentally repped you - I meant just to hit the quote button. The BoM plainly does not support a birth year of 5 BC, since 600 years had passed away from the time of Lehi's leaving Jerusalem until the year of the sign of His birth, and to put the chronology earlier than 600 BC doesn't work in the Biblical chronology. Although the lunar calendar is shorter than a solar year, it is corrected to the solar year meaning that the Hebrew year is essentially the same as our Roman years on average. However, it does seem to me that His birth might be in the fall if he began his ministry on his birthday. His ministry was probably 3.5 years or 42 months. What else may lead you to believe He was born in Tishri? Three dates in the Book of Mormon must be simultaneously synchronized: (1) the date when Lehi left Jerusalem (I Nephi 1:4, 10:4, III Nephi superscription), in 597 BC, the first year of Zedekiah (2) the birth of Jesus 600 years later (Helaman 14:2, III Nephi 1:1, 2:8), which can only be taken in Long Count years of 360 days ea, thus requiring 5 BC (3) the death of Jesus in his 34th year and 4th day (III Nephi 8:5), which is at Spring Passover in Nisan The Mesoamerican Long Count of 360-day years loses 6 months in 33 years, placing Jesus' birth at about 1 Tishri 5 BC
RevTestament Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Three dates in the Book of Mormon must be simultaneously synchronized: (1) the date when Lehi left Jerusalem (I Nephi 1:4, 10:4, III Nephi superscription), in 597 BC, the first year of Zedekiah (2) the birth of Jesus 600 years later (Helaman 14:2, III Nephi 1:1, 2:8), which can only be taken in Long Count years of 360 days ea, thus requiring 5 BC (3) the death of Jesus in his 34th year and 4th day (III Nephi 8:5), which is at Spring Passover in Nisan The Mesoamerican Long Count of 360-day years loses 6 months in 33 years, placing Jesus' birth at about 1 Tishri 5 BC I see, that Mesoamerican thing again. While I agree that in Biblical prophecy the long-count was used, there really is no indication that they kept their time in accordance with the long count calendar. My guess would be that they would keep it as the Jews did at the time of Lehi. While Jesus' birth and death were prophetic, no timeline was given for these events, and hence no employment of the long count calendar for prophetic use would have been made in my estimation. When these events actually happened their time according to the calendar was given. This would be the same calendar used to keep the days of the feasts, the passover, etc, which was the more accurate annualized calendar corrected to the solar year every 18.6 years. Why isn't your (3) in accordance with the 360 day long count calendar? thank your for your thoughtful response.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 9 hours ago, RevTestament said: I see, that Mesoamerican thing again. While I agree that in Biblical prophecy the long-count was used, there really is no indication that they kept their time in accordance with the long count calendar. My guess would be that they would keep it as the Jews did at the time of Lehi. While Jesus' birth and death were prophetic, no timeline was given for these events, and hence no employment of the long count calendar for prophetic use would have been made in my estimation. When these events actually happened their time according to the calendar was given. This would be the same calendar used to keep the days of the feasts, the passover, etc, which was the more accurate annualized calendar corrected to the solar year every 18.6 years. Why isn't your (3) in accordance with the 360 day long count calendar? thank your for your thoughtful response. #3 is given in accordance with the Long Count and with the regular Jewish calendar used in the Old World, to wit: Counting 33 years and three days backward from Jesus' death in the Book of Mormon (which we already know from the NT takes place at Spring Passover) loses 6 months in 33 years (the Mesoamerican Long Count of 360-day years is less than the same period in solar years), leaves us with the date of about 1 Tishri 5 BC for Jesus' birth. The NT does not provide that exact period of Jesus' life. Likewise, the prophecy that Jesus would be born 600 years after Lehi left Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah in 597 BC can only be accounted for using the Long Count of 360-day years, thus taking us to 5 BC -- which is the consensus year of NT scholars in any case, due to the death of Herod the Great in early 4 BC. No other synchronisms are possible.
RevTestament Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 Well, I suppose that would be the case if one accepts the date of 4 BC as fact for Herod's death, but tradition placed it in 1 BC. It is totally conceivable to me that he allowed his sons to begin reigning as tetrarchs around 4 BC after he fell ill in the years prior. He even supposedly changed his will in 4 BC, and executed his son Antipater, so this could be when his other sons dated their rule from - since it was taken from Antipater. This makes some sense in that Augustus did not confirm Herod's will, allowing anyone to rule as king in his stead, but allowed the sons to rule as tetrarchs of divided territories. History suggests that Herod's illness eventually got bad enough that he committed suicide, so there is evidence that he had little desire or was in little shape to rule anyway. It appears the 4 BC date is based essentially on representations of the sons that they began rule in 4 BC, but again this was as tetrarchs possibly under their father as king, and so the date of 4 BC as a date of death is a guess.
PeterPear Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Read the whole story, Peter. You are confusing the 6th month of the Jewish year (Elul) with the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. The angel Gabriel first comes to the priest Zacharias at the Temple, announcing to him that his wife will get pregnant and bear a son named John. At some point thereafter Elizabeth became pregnant. We do not know when. However, Luke 1:24 takes up the story when Elizabeth had been pregnant for five months. Then, Luke 1:26ff says that "in the sixth month" the same angel came to Mary with an annunciation for her own pregnancy -- including the statement in verse 36 that her cousin Elizabeth was in the sixth month of her pregnancy. Mary immediately went to see her cousin, both women now pregnant. Mary stayed with her about three months (nearly to her cousin's full term), and returned home to Nazareth. Given the overlapping sequence here, it is possible that the two births are separated by just six months, John being born in Nisan 5BC, and Jesus on Tishri 1 (Rosh haShana) 5BC, since that date of birth is the only possible synchronism with the Book of Mormon. Luke 1 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia" The High Priests of the course of Abia serve in the 8th week which is in the early month Iyar or our late Spring or early May. Therefore, Elisabeth conceived in the Spring. The angel appeared to Mary in the 6th month of Elisabeth's term or in Tishrei - our Autumn. Therefore Christ was born in Nissan or in the Spring. Priests also started their ministry at age 30. After being baptized of John, Luke 3:23 states "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age..." The Baptism of the Lord is also mentioned in John 1. John 2 mentions the private miracle of water to wine, and if we suppose, our Lords Marriage - if you believe in LDS Theology. Thus after receiving his priesthood ordinances, the Savior now almost thirty started his ministry on the Passover or the time of his birth - being the Spring. John 2:13. The Book of Mormon confirms this as the Nephites kept the Law of Moses and its calendar, not the Law of the Theory F.A.R.M.S./Mormon Interpreter/FairMormon/BMAF - the Mesoamerica Long Count Calendar. As others have pointed out here earlier: 3 Neph 1: 1 Now it came to pass that the ninety and first year had passed away and it was six hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; - this is the Spring - the first month of Hebrew Calendar. 3 Nephi 8:5 And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land. The Nephites began their reckoning from the day of the Lord's birth - 34 years later - the first month - confirmed . Jan 1994 Ensign https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/01/passover-was-it-symbolic-of-his-coming?lang=eng
Robert F. Smith Posted April 9, 2016 Posted April 9, 2016 49 minutes ago, PeterPear said: Luke 1 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia" The High Priests of the course of Abia serve in the 8th week which is in the early month Iyar or our late Spring or early May. Therefore, Elisabeth conceived in the Spring. The angel appeared to Mary in the 6th month of Elisabeth's term or in Tishrei - our Autumn. Therefore Christ was born in Nissan or in the Spring. ............................................... While it is true that Zechariah was a priest (kohen) of the course of Abijah, one of 24 courses which served at the Temple twice yearly (but also at the three pilgrimage festivals), it is not clear precisely when those two weeks would have occurred. Several scholars put Abijah in Oct-Nov (Heshvan), and May-June (Sivan), as you have it here. However, that does not actually tell us when Elizabeth became pregnant, as I pointed out to you above. Moreover, even if Elizabeth got instantly pregnant the day Zechariah returned, Tishri is not the sixth month of her pregnancy, but actually the fourth or fifth month at best (Sivan, Tammuz, Ab, Elul, Tishri).* Even with that, if we place the conception of John in Sivan (June), the conception of Jesus six months later in Kislev (December), the birth of John then would be in Nisan, and the birth of Jesus in Tishri, just as I have suggested.** * J. Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 2nd ed. (Hendrickson, 1998), sections 470-473. ** http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append179d.html . 3 Neph 1: 1 Now it came to pass that the ninety and first year had passed away and it was six hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; - this is the Spring - the first month of Hebrew Calendar. 3 Nephi 8:5 And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land. The Nephites began their reckoning from the day of the Lord's birth - 34 years later - the first month - confirmed . ...................................................................... Israelites abroad could certainly maintain their holy day sequence under the Long Count calendar. indeed, only the Long Count calendar allows for a rational 600-year count from 597 BC to the birth of Jesus in Tishri 5 BC. And only the Long Count calendar gets from there to a Passover death of Jesus.
PeterPear Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) On April 9, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Yeah yeah yeah. Mesoamerica Long Count Calendar. Spare us please of your Book of Mormon theory that says Joseph Smith was an idiot. Does the church have to wander 40 more years in the Mesoamerica Jungle until the F.A.R.M.S. Generation passes away? And the Maya weren't the Nephites, but the Nephites used the Mesoamerica Long Count Calendar. Edited April 13, 2016 by PeterPear
Robert F. Smith Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, PeterPear said: Yeah yeah yeah. Mesoamerica Long Count Calendar. Spare us please of your Book of Mormon theory that says Joseph Smith was an idiot. Does the church have to wander 40 more years in the Mesoamerica Jungle until the F.A.R.M.S. Generation passes away? And the Maya weren't the Nephites, but the Nephites used the Mesoamerica Long Count Calendar. An interesting reply Pete, not to say that it is rational or meaningful, but indicative that you have a lot of anger to work out.
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