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God commanded Abraham?


Benji

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Paul, the issue at hand is not whether Biblical prophets condemned Abram for sleeping with Hagar but whether or not God commanded him to do so...

And how do you expect to determine that issue?

I've given you two perspectives to support my case as shown in the D&C:

1. Bible prophets didn't condemn Abraham, but praised him in all things.

2. Josephus says God commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife

If you will note, I have more evidence than you do to build my case. Why can't you see that. Pause a little and look at the evidence.

Paul O

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Did God condemn Abraham for taking on extra wives? Was there a punishment for Abraham for taking on extra wives and if so what were these punishments? Biblical reference required.

Another thing, are all of God's dealing and revelations to Abraham recorded in the Bible?

Yeah, the Bible is such a tiny little record with just a little detail.

Abraham and Jacob were polygamist!!

Let God be praised for their righteousness in taking wives to build the kingdom of God on earth. They did the right thing and were friends of God.

:P

Paul O

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Hi Zak,

Here is again Jacob 2:23-24:
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

I love it when people quote Jacvob 2:24 out of context!

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

God leaves the door open... That he might just "Command" polygamy for certian reasons.

And I just love it when people take Jacob 2:30 out of context. cool.gif

Here is the Scriptural Passage of 2 Nephi 3:23:

23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.

I bolded the words 'they shall hearken' in that Scripture just above. Please notice that it states 'they shall hearken' just like the phrase 'they shall hearken' in Jacob 2:30. 2 Nephi 3:23 can safely and correctly read as:

23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they will hearken unto the words of the book.

The same thing goes for Jacob 2:30. Here is the Scriptural Passage of Jacob 2:30:

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Here is Jacob 2:30 again, and this time I will also change the word 'shall' to 'will'. Jacob 2:30 can safely and correctly read as:

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they will hearken unto these things.

The words "these things" the Nephite men will hearken unto if they don't follow the commandment of Monogamy, i.e. having just only one wife, is that they will end up hearkening until the sins of Polygamy. I believe that this is the true and correct interpretation of Jacob 2:30. The Nephite men were really willing to hearken until the sins of Polygamy, because they were Not willing to do as they had been commanded to do, i.e. having just only one wife (Please See Jacob 1:15; 2:34; and 3:5). I truly do believe that most LDS Apologists take Jacob 2:30 out of context, just like a lot fundamentalist Evangelical Christians take Revelation 22:18-19 out of context.

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This thread has left the subject.

Please open new threads, guys. I'm still waiting for my contenders to discredit Josephus and the Jews for praising Abraham in his extra affairs with Hagar.

So far opponents of Abraham have offered nothing to show Abraham was practicing wickedness by sleeping with another woman or some other fleshy vice, that God frowned upon.

Paul O

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This thread has left the subject.

Please open new threads, guys. I'm still waiting for my contenders to discredit Josephus and the Jews for praising Abraham in his extra affairs with Hagar.

So far opponents of Abraham have offered nothing to show Abraham was practicing wickedness by sleeping with another woman or some other fleshy vice, that God frowned upon.

Paul O

Sorry Paul.

I have started a new thread.

Great Apostasy

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I do agree with the Mormon interpretation of Revelation 22:18-19. I do really agree with you. Did you read my Post carefully? I did indeed state Revelation 22:18-19 does just only deals with not adding until the Book of Revelation and Not the Bible.

ok,

Paul O

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Mormonator, actually the Bible did exist and it was called the Old Testament. In the book of Acts, Paul commends the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he said was true:

Acts 17:11 - These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Paul, I will respond to you with my original post which has still never been addressed:

D&C 132:

verse 34 - "God acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises."

verse 65 - "...when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.

The Bible, on the other hand says nothing of God commanding Abram (God had not yet changed his name to Abraham at this point - another discrepancy) to do such a thing and makes it clear that Sarai (whose name also had not yet been changed to Sarah) came up with the idea of her husband and Hagar sleeping together:

Genesis 16

verse 2-5 "...go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom..."

According to the Bible this was a completely human idea which is not at all what D&C states.

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Actually Paul, David (who was a murderer and adulterer) is considered "a man after God's own heart" as you can see here:

Acts 13:22 - ...I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Therefore he does use sinful men as "great examples" to use your words.

As for judging others, I am merely challenging the claims of Mormonism which the Bible calls me to do:

Titus 1:9 - Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince...

Your argument that the Mormon position can somehow be sustained by the fact that "we know very little" about Abram and Sarai is not very strong.

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Brackite,

The words "these things" the Nephite men will hearken unto if they don't follow the commandment of Monogamy, i.e. having just only one wife, is that they will end up hearkening until the sins of Polygamy. I believe that this is the true and correct interpretation of Jacob 2:30. The Nephite men were really willing to hearken until the sins of Polygamy, because they were Not willing to do as they had been commanded to do, i.e. having just only one wife (Please See Jacob 1:15; 2:34; and 3:5). I truly do believe that most LDS Apologists take Jacob 2:30 out of context, just like a lot fundamentalist Evangelical Christians take Revelation 22:18-19 out of context.

Talking about the the biggest "stretch" I've ever seen. You sure you're not a contortionist? No wonders... you have such difficulty with the bible.

Lets take a look at the whole discourse shall we.

Jacob 1

15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

16 Yea, and they also began to search much gold and silver, and began to be lifted up somewhat in pride.

17 Wherefore I, Jacob, gave unto them these words as I taught them in the temple, having first obtained mine errand from the Lord.

What was their sin? Lusting after women and gold.

11 Wherefore, I must tell you the truth according to the plainness of the word of God. For behold, as I inquired of the Lord, thus came the word unto me, saying: Jacob, get thou up into the temple on the morrow, and declare the word which I shall give thee unto this people.

12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.

Again... Gold LUST was the sin and abomination.

13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.

Pride and worldlyness.

14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

15 O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his eye he can smite you to the dust!

16 O that he would rid you from this iniquity and abomination. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this pride of your hearts destroy your souls!

Again the abomination is pride.

17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good

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As for a prize for accepting my challenge what did you have in mind? :P

It was your challenge, but since you asked I'd be happy with peace on earth. At least the part of it that you can influence.

Read the links I posted . . its clear many non-LDS Christians accepted Abraham as support of authorized (non-sin) polygamy well before 1800, as well as today. Also, do you understand that LDS see polygamy authorized only by law/men as sin?

If you were right about Abraham not being commanded, we would also call that sin. In which case, perhaps he also could have repented. But that still wouldn't change Isaiah's prophecy for the last days.

But isn't it amazing the JS found out about Josephus on the Internet? <_<

Instead of trying to believe all or nothing, simply look for the good and build from there.

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Actually Paul, David (who was a murderer and adulterer) is considered "a man after God's own heart" as you can see here:

Acts 13:22 - ...I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 

Therefore he does use sinful men as "great examples" to use your words.

Actually David was a man after God

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Brackite writes:

The words "these things" the Nephite men will hearken unto if they don't follow the commandment of Monogamy, i.e. having just only one wife, is that they will end up hearkening until the sins of Polygamy. I believe that this is the true and correct interpretation of Jacob 2:30. The Nephite men were really willing to hearken until the sins of Polygamy, because they were Not willing to do as they had been commanded to do, i.e. having just only one wife (Please See Jacob 1:15; 2:34; and 3:5). I truly do believe that most LDS Apologists take Jacob 2:30 out of context, just like a lot fundamentalist Evangelical Christians take Revelation 22:18-19 out of context.
"Hearken" implies a message. Within the context of Jacob 2, there isn't a message for sins. The message is one of polygamy. And "these things" refers to the closest antecedent which would be the commandment of monogamy.

I continue to insist that your reading is not a natural reading of the text.

Ben

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Benji said:

Mormonator, actually the Bible did exist and it was called the Old

Testament. In the book of Acts, Paul commends the Bereans for searching

the scriptures to see if what he said was true:

True, the Old Testament was there. But only if you were a Jew, or if you

were a Greek or something that had converted to Judaism. For those who

were not Jews did not believe in the Old Testament any more than

Christians today believe in the Koran. So you think that non-Jewish people

would have actually searched the Old Testament to compare Paul's words to it?

Why would they do that if they didn't even believe in it?

You should have also quoted verse 10 of Acts 17. It is quite clear that

Paul was preaching to a group of Jews and/or converted Greeks. He was not

preaching to non-Jews.

Acts 17

10.  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto

Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that

they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the

scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Yes, it is true as you said. Paul did commend the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he said was true. But the "Bereans" he is referring to all beleived in the Old Testament in the first place because they were Jews (or Greeks converted to Judaism).

Anyway, I think you skipped over the real issue that I brought up in my other thread. I had already conceded that the Jews did have "scriptures". So it was pointless for you to bring that up and to argue that, because I had already conceded to it.

Here is what I said:

Mormonator said:

All the Jews had were their Jewish Scriptures and then the words of the Apostles. Of course, gentile converts, which eventually way outnumbered Jewish converts didn't even have scriptures. What were they supposed to do?? Pray to Zeus to see if the Apostles were true prophets? Come on man.

I said that because I was responding to what you said here:

Benji said:

So how is one to know when someone is preaching a false gospel and a false Jesus? They are to compare the gospel found in the Bible with whatever this person says and see if it matches. If it doesn't, then you have a false Jesus, a false gospel and a false prohpet.

Since the Greeks and Romans that were preached to by Paul and the Apostles did not have the OT since they were not of the Jewish faith how were they to know if he was preaching a false gospel??? They would obviously not compare what he said to the OT. Most of them probably did not even have the OT. Certainly most of them had never even heard of or read anything in the OT. So how then could they actually compare the gospel found in the OT to the one that Paul was preaching???

Please answer the question this time and don't ignore.

I assert that these Greeks and Romans that had the gospel preached to them by Paul and other Apostles, were converted through the power of the Holy Ghost, not by comparing his words to a book they didn't have, didn't know about, and/or didn't even believe in.

What say you?

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Paul, again my point all along has been that the words of D&C do not gel with the words in Genesis. Plain and simple. You're the one turning it around and focusing on the polygamy/adultery issue. You admit that God does not command Abraham to sleep with Hagar. Just because Josephus or anyone else for that matter says that God did command it is irrelevant.

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Mormonator, I agree that they were converted by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, anytime someone converts to a faith they then have access to the writings of that faith which they can study for edification. While the verse in Acts that I quoted was referring to Jews, it is important to note that Paul still commended them. Does that mean that these Jews were not converted by the Holy Spirit? Of course not. It just means that the Holy Spirit used that as part of His leading of them. I'm sure that Paul informed the gentiles the prophecies of the Old Testament because they are key to who Christ was and what he came to do.

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urroner, I believe it contains the only ones we need to know. Anyone could say that "I had a revelation that God told Abraham additional things that are not found in the Bible." In this case, Jospeh Smith has made that claim. How do we know this claim is credible? We can study in the ways I have already mentioned (research of archaeology, character of Joseph, Egyptology) and like the Bereans did. Well, I have studied and these claims do not hold up under scrutiny.

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You can also search the writings of the people who wrote about that topic nearer the time of the event. For example, Josephus. He was a scholaryl Jew who lived 2000 years ago, who knew more about the Old Testament than any of us ever will. He says that God commanded Abraham to take Hagar. Therefore, the question should be asked "How did Joseph Smith come up with the same story as the scholar, Josephus, and go contrary to what the Bible appears to say?" If Joseph Smith was trying to fake it as a prophet, wouldn't it be more logical to write that which seemed more credible? Amazingly, when Joseph Smith received D&C 132, it might not have been completely credible to the "learned" but now, those who know most about the Old Testament culture would accept his words, basing it on things like Josephus and others. Josephus' account does not contradict the Bible, but rather expands upon what it says, as does Joseph Smith's revelation.

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Benji:

Mormonator, I agree that they were converted by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, anytime someone converts to a faith they then have access to the writings of that faith which they can study for edification. While the verse in Acts that I quoted was referring to Jews, it is important to note that Paul still commended them. Does that mean that these Jews were not converted by the Holy Spirit? Of course not. It just means that the Holy Spirit used that as part of His leading of them. I'm sure that Paul informed the gentiles the prophecies of the Old Testament because they are key to who Christ was and what he came to do.

Ok. So you say here that the way to know if somebody is preaching a false gospel is by the power of the Holy Spirit. With wich I agree.

Benji:

So how is one to know when someone is preaching a false gospel and a false Jesus? They are to compare the gospel found in the Bible with whatever this person says and see if it matches. If it doesn't, then you have a false Jesus, a false gospel and a false prohpet.

You say here that the way to know if somebody is preaching a false gospel is to "compare the gospel found in the bible with whatever the person says and see if it matches".

Benji said here:

However, anytime someone converts to a faith they then have access to the writings of that faith which they can study for edification.

Now you are saying that the Bible is only for the study and [U]edification,but before you said the Bible was to be used as a test to see whether somebody was preaching false gospel.

They are to compare the gospel found in the Bible with whatever this person says and see if it matches. If it doesn't, then you have a false Jesus, a false gospel and a false prohpet

You are going back and forth here and you are quite confusing. Which is it???

How does one know if somebody is preaching a false gospel? By comparing it to scriputure as you said (although you conceded that the Romans and Greeks could NOT have done that becuase they had no scripture, yet many were still converted.), or by the Power of the Holy Ghost, also as you said.

You remind me of John Kerry. FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP

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Josephus's writings are not scripture and any claims he made are not accepted as revelation from God. Just because something he wrote happens to agree with Joseph Smith is not proof of anything, especially since it is in opposition to the Bible.

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I believe that studying the Bible is a companion to the Spirit, just to clarify.

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Josephus's writings are not scripture and any claims he made are not accepted as revelation from God.  Just because something he wrote happens to agree with Joseph Smith is not proof of anything, especially since it is in opposition to the Bible.

And the verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy?

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