The Mormonator Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Beni:Mormonator, are you saying you don't believe the flood already happened?Uuum. No.(Altough, speaking from a scientific point of view, I have as much reason to believe the flood as I do the Book of Mormon. Neither can be proved with tangible evidences)God told Joseph Smith not to join any church and that their creeds were abominations and that they were all corrupt or somthing along those lines.When Joseph Smith prayed and asked God which of all the churches he should join do you think he was asking about every single church that has ever existed from the beginning of Christianity to the year 2005??? No. Obviously he was not. He was asking specifically about those churches which he was familiar with. He was asking about the specific churches that had held meetings in his area and that his friends and family went to. God's statement cannot be applied to all Christian organizations and leaders because Joseph Smith was obviously not asking about all of them. God's statement can only apply to the churches Joseph Smith had had esposure to.When Jesus said, "Hypocrites!!" in the Bible, was he calling every single Jew that had ever existed, that existed then, and that ever will exist a hypocrit. No, he was refering to a specific group of people or a specific organization with wich he had made contact with. As with Noah. Just because you can find a place in the Bible where God says the whole earth is evil and that he is going to destroy it with a flood, does not mean that that applies to the earth right now. It obviously only applied to that specific time and to that specific people. The same applies to what God said to Joseph Smith. Link to comment
The Mormonator Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 They tell me my brand of Christianity is a cult and that I'm going to burn in hell unless I give it up and accept Evangelical theology? I listen to "Christian radio" every day, and I hear that message many times every day. GASP!You can't be serious!! Evangelicals would never do that!!! Link to comment
Brackite Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hello There,Notice also in 2 Samuel 12:7-11 that a specific 'command' is not needed, just authorization. Notice how the prophet Nathan said that the Lord would've given him more (wives and concubines) if he'd just asked. Instead, David committed adultery and murdered to cover it up.AS I have stated previously, it really does No good at all to point to 2 Samuel 12:7-9. The Prophet Jacob in the Book of Mormon states that the Polygamous practices of king David and king Solomon were an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. Here is again Jacob 2:23-24: 23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Link to comment
Big Dogger Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Not that I agree with Drewm, but isn't what he said essentially what all Evangelical say about everyone else in the world? They tell me my brand of Christianity is a cult and that I'm going to burn in hell unless I give it up and accept Evangelical theology? I listen to "Christian radio" every day, and I hear that message many times every day. I can't speak for the Evangelical community. I belong to the Catholic faith and we are taught that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. We are absolutely not taught that salvation is exclusive to the Catholic community or even the Christian community for that matter.By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."Peace be with you. Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Paul, yes I am well aware Mormons believe that Joseph Smith "restored" the gospel. And this is another point where Mromons and Christians dramatically differ. The doctrine is not "pretty much the same" as you claim. I have seen you assert on this site that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones which is not what Christians believe. Huge doctrinal differences.Benji,I think you misunderstood what I said, which was:Hold on there, friend; I admit that the Mormon church teaches a different gospel than what Christians today teach. But that is not to say the Mormon church is not akin to the original Christian church Link to comment
Brackite Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Here is Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:1 & 37: 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines- 37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. There is no where in the Bible that mentions Isaac having more than one wife. Isaac had just only one wife throughout his lifetime according to the Bible. And as for Moses, Moses had just two wives throughout his lifetime. Having two wives, does not qualify as having many wives and concubines. Plus we know form the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Jacob states that king David and king Solomon having many wives and concubines was an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. The polygamous practices of king David and king Solomon was an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The truth of the matter is, that the so-called" christian world thinks differently because they do in fact practice a false religion that has no more power to save than Baal. Mormonism is true Christianity restored in the latter-days. It will turn heathens into gods, while your "christianity" and all who cling thereto and do not repent will sink down to hell. HOW DARE YOU?!?!?! YOU ARE NOT GOD! ONLY GOD WILL JUDGE MANKIND.I am horrified that anyone of any denomination would make such a claim.How dare you claim that all non-LDS Christians will "sink down to hell"? How dare you...Big Dogger,I admit that Drewm777 broke the rules of the board by flaming and he should be more careful about that or the moderator will deal with him harshly.But please note that flames have been coming from the other side too, particularly from Benji. Here is how Benji flames LDS:Mormonator, your comments only confirm just how much Mormons and Christians differ in their doctrine.Here's some verses from the Bible that illustrate my point:Galatians 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. So, let's just try to be more nicer about how we chat. Benji, you goofed, so say your sorry and let's move on. Paul O Link to comment
Brackite Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hello There,Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19 is just only specifically referring to the Book of Revelation and Not the Bible. Please See Deut. 4:2 and Revelation 1:3; & 9-11. Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Plus we know form the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Jacob states that king David and king Solomon having many wives and concubines was an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. The polygamous practices of king David and king Solomon was an abomination in the sight of the Lord God.Brackite,You haven Link to comment
Big Dogger Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Big Dogger,I admit that Drewm777 broke the rules of the board by flaming and he should be more careful about that or the moderator will deal with him harshly.But please note that flames have been coming from the other side too, particularly from Benji. Here is how Benji flames LDS:Mormonator, your comments only confirm just how much Mormons and Christians differ in their doctrine.Here's some verses from the Bible that illustrate my point:Galatians 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Benji, you goofed, so say your sorry and let's move on. Paul O Paul,Agreed. Both sides, myself included, are guilty of flaming from at times to various degrees.I thought that this particular one was just way over the top.So, let's just try to be more nicer about how we chat. I agree with you here Paul! Thanks and peace be with you. Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 There is no where in the Bible that mentions Isaac having more than one wife. Isaac had just only one wife throughout his lifetime according to the Bible. And you think the Bible tells all!? The Bible is a tiny little book that gives us few details. Heck, we know practically nothing about the life of Christ! It would take volumes to tell the story Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hello There,Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19 is just only specifically referring to the Book of Revelation and Not the Bible. Please See Deut. 4:2 and Revelation 1:3; & 9-11. I can assure you that we Mormons are very aware of what it means to add to scripture and so forth. We testify that man is not authorized to do so and God said that "if any man" does add to the word he will be in big trouble for doing so.But, let me assure you that prophets moved by the Holy Ghost are not what the Lord considered "any man" to be. The Lord calls prophets to declare his word! Line upon line and precept upon precept and bless are they who receive more of the word of the Lord.How hardly does man know the mind of God! But God is willing to help us understand his will through revelation and modern day prophets. Paul O Link to comment
Zakuska Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hello There,Notice also in 2 Samuel 12:7-11 that a specific 'command' is not needed, just authorization. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I also like Gal 1:8-9:Rev 146 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to dpreach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every enation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his bjudgment is come: and cworship dhim that made eheaven Link to comment
1dc Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Here is Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:1 & 37: . . .Plus we know form the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Jacob states that king David and king Solomon having many wives and concubines was an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. The polygamous practices of king David and king Solomon was an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. As long as you're willing to quote D&C 132 to make your points, be fair and use all of it that applies to the people and topic which you say you know.38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.39 David Link to comment
Benji Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 Mormonator, if Joseph Smith "restored the true gospel" which had supposedly been lost since the time of Christ the only logical conclusion one can come to is that every Christian church was included as an abomination. This is clear especially in light of other statements made by JS and BY concerning "gentiles".Paul, your version of "original Christianity" and everyone else's are two different things. Obviously you subscribe to the Mormon version which has been the issue all along. Christians believe in the gospel taught by Jesus in the Bible and Mormons believe in the gospel taught by Joseph Smith and other books you all consider scripture.As for throwing flames, I apologize if the Bible verses I quoted offended you. I was genuinely trying to point out parts of the Bible that I believe are dealing with the issues we are discussing. It was not meant as a personal attack on anyone. In fact, my entire point in discussing things on this board is because I was born and raised in Mormonism and after searching long and hard I found several things out about it that deeply troubled me. Since then I have come to an understanding of Christianity and the Bible which is vastly different from what I was taught in Mormonism. I feel it is my obligation to raise and discuss these issues with people in Mormonism because I care about people. You may find this hard to believe because I am challenging what you believe but it is true.I agree we should be peaceable but that does not mean we pretend that we believe the same things when we do not.Paul, you mentioned that the other books Mormons consider scripture are inspired by God and therefore the verse from Revelation does not apply. If that's true then you are right. But if they are of men then it does apply. This is clearly somewhere that we disagree.1dc, you're right that myself and others have wanted an independent observer to confirm LDS claims and in this case Josephus appears to do so. However, I have been most concerned with independent archaeoligcal confirmation of the BOM and independent Egyptological confirmation of the BOA which has still not happened. I must have missed the info you posted of Christians who don't think Abraham was an adulterer. Either way, it is not an orthodox position that God commanded him to sleep with Hagar which D&C claims and that was the original point of this thread.As for a prize for accepting my challenge what did you have in mind? Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I must have missed the info you posted of Christians who don't think Abraham was an adulterer. Either way, it is not an orthodox position that God commanded him to sleep with Hagar which D&C claims and that was the original point of this thread. Name one prophet in the Bible who referred to Abraham as an adulterer or one who did wrong in sleeping with Hagar. Just name one, and you will thus begin to build a case against the case in which you disagree. I think your whole case is built on prejudice. Show me your evidence, please.I think Abraham was a holy prophet before, during, and after he slept with Hagar. Oh, let me rephrase that so no one gets confused:I think Abram was a holy prophet before, during, and after he slept with Hagar.Paul O Link to comment
Benji Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 Paul, the issue at hand is not whether Biblical prophets condemned Abram for sleeping with Hagar but whether or not God commanded him to do so... Link to comment
urroner Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Did God condemn Abraham for taking on extra wives? Was there a punishment for Abraham for taking on extra wives and if so what were these punishments? Biblical reference required.Another thing, are all of God's dealing and revelations to Abraham recorded in the Bible? Link to comment
Confidential Informant Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Paul, the issue at hand is not whether Biblical prophets condemned Abram for sleeping with Hagar but whether or not God commanded him to do so... You'd think that if God didn't command him to do it, then God would have commanded him to stop it. God had no problem giving instructions to stop every other type of sin He didn't like, why exempt plural marriage? What's the explanation?C.I. Link to comment
The Mormonator Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Mormonator, if Joseph Smith "restored the true gospel" which had supposedly been lost since the time of Christ the only logical conclusion one can come to is that every Christian church was included as an abomination. This is clear especially in light of other statements made by JS and BY concerning "gentiles".Why is it that "the only logical conclusion" is always the conlcusion that you have arrived at?As if most others on this board are not capable of arriving at logical conclusions as well. I don't mean to burst your bubble.But it is not the only logical conclusion. Link to comment
The Mormonator Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Christians believe in the gospel taught by Jesus in the Bible and Mormons believe in the gospel taught by Joseph Smith and other books you all consider scripture.Yes. And the gospel taught by Joseph Smith is the same gospel taught by Jesus Christ. Is there is something wrong in believing in the gospel taught by Jesus Christ?Non-Mormon Christians believe in their iterperetations of what the Bible teaches and what Jesus taught. The Bible is ambiguous and confusing. Hence the oodles of different Christian denominations that have a vast array of differing docrtines and practices, yet they all have the same book lying on the pulpit. Is this what Paul meant when he said "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism"? Link to comment
Benji Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 There is something wrong with believing in the gospel of a Jesus Christ other than the one revealed in the Bible:Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mark 13:6 - For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. So how is one to know when someone is preaching a false gospel and a false Jesus? They are to compare the gospel found in the Bible with whatever this person says and see if it matches. If it doesn't, then you have a false Jesus, a false gospel and a false prohpet. Link to comment
Stormin' Mormon Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 So how is one to know when someone is preaching a false gospel and a false Jesus? They are to compare the gospel found in the Bible with whatever this person says and see if it matches. If it doesn't, then you have a false Jesus, a false gospel and a false prohpet. I know that this point has been made before, but this test is extra-biblical. What did the early saints use to test doctrine? Where in all of that holy tome of scripture do we ever find it referencing itself? Where can I find an apostle or prophet telling me that the sole repository of Christian doctrine would someday be found within a book that was not yet even compiled or written. I find it absolutely ridiculous when people try to paint the ancient saints as if they were Bible-thumping Evangelicals. Sorry. No Bible, no dice. Link to comment
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